Debunking The Dangerous Myths Of Identity Politics | Heather Mac Donald | POLITICS | Rubin Report


– Are we heading towards
a point of no return and how do we get
back from this? This is the most
difficult thing. The way we actually
demolish identity politics. And again the founding engine
of this is disparate impact. We have to counteract
the myth of bias, that as long as the only
allowable explanation for socioeconomic disparities is the Ta-Nehesi Coates
view of the world, the Michelle Alexander
view of the world, that everything
is driven by bias, the AOC world, they win. – Hey, I’m Dave Rubin and unless I’ve been impeached
by a completely partisan vote this is still The Rubin Report. As always a quick reminder
to click the subscribe bell so you guys have a small chance of seeing our videos
right here on the YouTube. And more importantly joining
me today is an author, political commentator and fellow
at the Manhattan Institute, Heather Mac Donald, welcome
back to the Rubin Report. – It’s such an honor Dave. Thank you so much
for having me on. – I’m glad to have you back. Had you on about a year ago. And people they love you. That’s what I learned–
– Oh good (laughs). – That’s what I learned in
the YouTube comments section. – It’s just the aura of being
in your presence, you know, it’s there’s so much
love coming at you that a little spills over. – All right, well,
then you’re killin’ it in the scarf game today. So I feel like I have
to be very sharp. – Thank you. – So here we go, so one of the things I
wanted to start with here is something that we
discussed briefly about five or 10 minutes
in our last interview, you are a secular conservative. And I think a lot
of conservatives seem to think that
is either an oxymoron or just simply cannot exist because conservatism has to have some sort of religious
underpinning. So I thought that would
just be an interesting place for us to pick up
the conversation. – I base my conservatism
on empirical truth, on what I’ve observed in life. I can talk about the necessity
of the two parent family because we can see
empirically what happens when the marriage norm
breaks down in communities. I support most
traditional values because I think
we have a history of stability when
those are honored. I don’t think it’s
particularly stable to rest a set of political principles
or moral principles on the basis of revealed wisdom; That this holy
book supports this. And I’ll notice this, people
who I respect enormously Dave whether it’s Dennis
Prager or Michael Medved that are making
the argument that you cannot have a moral society without a foundation
of religious belief I would ask them, these are
two brilliant Jewish thinkers: Why don’t you believe that
Jesus is the son of God? It’s revealed truth. The new testament says
that this is gospel. They don’t believe that. – So basically if you’re
going that far with religion and you’re saying you
need this revealed truth, this belief to
organize a society why not the next level
of the revealed truth or whatever the next level
is or something like that. – Right, they will not take
it as simply necessary truth the fact that the new testament claims to be the word of God. Why don’t they believe that? They’re basing their same
belief in the old testament on the same claim that
the new testament makes. They just choose to be
agnostic or atheistic about one of those holy books. I could apply the same challenge to their belief that the old
testament is the revealed truth because it’s simply
self-validating. So I would look for a
different set of principles that does not depend on
one’s suspension of disbelief and an acceptance that
something is revealed truth for my moral code. – So with that being said,
does it matter to you if the end result
is the same, right? So I’m gonna guess that on most of the important
issues of the day you probably agree in large part with both Dennis
and Michael Medved. And most conservative thinkers that maybe come from a
more religious background. So at the end of the day
when it all washes away do you think it really matters? Do you think that’s sort
of a long term problem? – No, I guess if we
arrive at the same place. I think it’s a problem for that segment of
voters or thinkers who don’t find those appeals
particularly interesting. But I have to, I’ll
be very honest Dave, part of my resistance
to this is simply I don’t find claims
of petitionary prayer and the idea of a
personal loving God consistent with what
I see, what I call: The daily massacre
of the innocence. To me it’s a very hard
claim to make that I should expect God
to pay attention to my well being when
he’s willing to allow horrific things to
happen to people far more deserving and
innocent than I am. So for me it’s partly
just a truth value. I cannot stomach
what appears to me to be a patently false claim
about a personal loving God. – It’s interesting. I’ve mentioned that I’ve
had John Kasich in here who is the former
Governor of Ohio and presidential
candidate obviously. And when I asked him about faith he said something that sounded
sort of almost flippant but I thought it was really
actually pretty insightful. He said: You know, some
people can do it with God, I just can’t. And I thought that was
actually, you know, for a certain set a people where you’re able to sort of always sort of maybe go back
to your intellectual side some people just sort
of get tired of that. Does that make sense to you? – And I also think it’s a
very, I think it’s genetic. I know that I am
not particularly predisposed towards
metaphysical questions because I don’t think they
can really be answered. So the idea of: What
started the universe? We can’t really answer that. I think that to say, God, that’s just a place
holder for ignorance. That doesn’t help. You know, ’cause you get– – I may have to get you
in here with Prager. – (laughs) I’d love to.
– To discuss it. – You get infinite regress So, where did God come from? It’s just putting off
that moment of ignorance a little bit further. So I don’t find those questions
particularly relevant. On the other hand
I recognize that for much of humanity
that is a very deep need, to ask these basic questions
about origin and end point. Where are we all headed? What is the meaning of life? To me anybody who claims that he doesn’t find meaning in life when there is Mozart and Haydn, to invoke a Dennis
Prager favorite, or Beethoven or John
Milton or Aeschylus or Anthony Trollope
is missing something. – Or just waking
up with purpose– – Exactly.
– For whatever you do. – Doing, trying to do
the best you can do. I don’t find meaningless
for one second. – Yeah, so does
it worry you then when republicans or more
broadly conservatives talk about God all the time? Or now that we’re seeing
sort of a huge fracture in what’s happening
with the left, they’re like completely afraid to even mention God
or anything like that. Bernie, I think, is
basically an atheist although he won’t really say it ’cause I think there would
be political repercussions. But are you, does that
make you sort of feel not totally at home
with the conservatives? – Well, I grew up in a
very secular environment. So it was a novel
discovery to me in the ’90s when I was in a more
conservative writing circle, and I grew up as
a default liberal. I hadn’t been
exposed to religion. I mean, it is an amazing thing. I had been educated
on the coasts. And I didn’t realize
how different they were. So in one sense
I’m very parochial and I hadn’t been exposed to
the degree of religious faith. I guess I find it, I’m always amazed what
to me seems parochialism when I hear especially
Christians in a
political environment getting up there and
talking about Jesus is God. My view immediately is,
well, there are Jews around, you know, at the rallies
and there are muslims. How can you be so confident
that everybody in this audience is of that particular faith? And I also would notice
simply that religion has been tamed by
the enlightenment. It has now been taught
to mind it’s manners and sit quietly in the corner. The great kissy wissy
between Jews and Christians that we all now talk about the Judaeo-Christian
environment, heritage. And perhaps rightly so. That’s a novel thing. – Right, it wasn’t like that– – It wasn’t like that.
– For a long time. There were things
called The Crusades and a whole bunch a other stuff. – Exactly, exactly. And all these
religious supporters are saying we cannot
live without it. They are conveniently
overlooking what the history of religion
has been in our tradition and still is in
many other places that have not gone
through the enlightenment. The concept of tolerance
is not a religious concept, it’s an enlightenment concept. And religion in the west has been forced to
accept tolerance, which is a very good thing. But that is not an idea that
is inherent to religion. – Right, so I don’t wanna
be Prager or Medved’s– – No, do– – Lawyer at the moment but
I think what they would say is that it was all
the religious stuff that organized society that allowed us to get
to the enlightenment so that the
enlightenment could then unfurl all these good ideas. – Well, I don’t
think Christianity or
Judaeo-Christianity has any necessary
monopoly on moral virtues. I think there’s a
certain core sense of I don’t know any culture
that says: Murder is okay. But every culture starts to
make certain distinctions. – They don’t last that long. – (laughs) Right. But it’s fun for a moment. You get to give into your
most aggressive tendencies. – Right. Where do you think
Trump furls out on this? ‘Cause I don’t think
anyone really thinks he’s a religious person
or perhaps even a believer in any real sense of it. Yet Christians or
evangelicals especially really seem to like the
job that he’s doing. – Well, I don’t think he
has particular principles or deep thoughts about
much of anything. I think he’s a chameleon. He takes on the coloring of
what is convenient at the time. So whether he believes
or not, I don’t know. I don’t think he’s thought
much deeply about it either. And it doesn’t really matter. But certainly he’s willing
to speak that rhetoric in order to get that vote. And it’s an
interesting question. We’re more ready to have
a gay politician probably than somebody who is
an avowed nonbeliever, which is interesting. – So taking the
other side of this, as we watch sorta this internal civil war of
the democratic party between the socialists and the last few
remaining decent liberals or whatever you wanna call ’em I do see a connection between
not necessarily belief but they no longer have any
sort of guiding principle that they believe in
other than the state. Do you see something like that? Not that you need God or
you’re gonna have the state but because they have something
they have almost nothing. It’s starting from nothing
other than the state. They just want that state
to grow and grow and grow. – Well, you’re sort of making
an argument that I hear a lot which is that the left
progressives, liberals are relativists, they’re
moral relativists. I don’t, that’s not what I see. I see an absolute dogmatism. They just have a different
set of values or virtues in which they are
absolutely convinced. I mean they think that they
know the truth of America and that truth is one
of endemic, enduring
white supremacy and that everybody unless
he has been proven otherwise is filled with
bigotry and hatred. So I see them as judgemental, as the worst
caricature of puritans. So I wouldn’t say
it’s an amoral view. And it’s not one that is
particularly individualistic. It’s group based
and identity based. – Does it seem to you
that the remaining piece of whatever the
democratic party is that it just can’t hold? I mean AOC, who I think is pretty much wrong
about everything she did say something
a couple weeks ago that I thought was
relatively insightful, which is that she
basically as a socialist, they still call themselves
democratic socialists but they’ll get rid of that
first part soon enough. But that she shouldn’t be in
the same party as Joe Biden. And that strikes me
as actually true. What are these people
doing in the same party? Bernie Sanders and
Hillary Clinton should not be in the same party, that this thing just
can’t hold much longer. – Well, I don’t know. I think that that’s, the
gravity is with the AOCs and I would love to see
a very strong defense of the free market system of
individual entrepreneurship of the nobility and
bravery and courage– – But is there literally– – But I don’t think
they’re gonna make it. – Any democrat? Even Biden, like he’s the
last vestige of it, right? – No they won’t, no they
won’t, they won’t, they won’t. – So what do you think that is? That would lead
someone like Biden? That you know that he’s
not one of these people? What do you think that
is that weakness point? – I think that the idea that
there is a western culture has been so devalued. There’s a constellation
of complaints, of accusations that
are deeply intertwined. And it is involved
with identity politics. I think that the
identity politics is what’s gonna take
this culture down. But I think to
support capitalism you are leaving yourself
open to supporting white male capitalism and
white male entrepreneurship. And so I think what Biden fears
would be less being accused of being a hard hearted
vulture on the body politic as being somehow involved
in a long tradition that led to colonialism,
that led to imperialism and that leads to oppression by white males of
everybody else. So that’s what I think
is going to prevent him from giving a strong throated and full enthusiastic defense
of the values of capitalism. And for me the question is,
again, as we mentioned before the Marc Benioff Salesforce. You know, the Jeff
Bezos’s of the world. When are they gonna demand
a candidate that will defend their right to become
billionaires legitimately because they created
products that the world over is hungering for? – Isn’t it pathetic then
we see Tom Steyer up there and he’s like a little
puppy dog around Bernie, just like me, like. Well, it’s ’cause he doesn’t
wanna get sent to the Gulag once Bernie’s in power, right? – Right, yeah, no, no. Politicians, I mean,
they still have this incredible power, you know? And he’s not about to say, he occasionally invokes
that I did create something. And of course he has to
have his humble roots. But he’s not about to say: I did something that you guys
wouldn’t have a clue to do, which is mastering
the supply chain. – Right. Do you think it’s funny
that the billionaires that are thought of as
the good guy millionaire, so, you know, Bill Gates is
thought of as good, let’s say. And Warren Buffet is
thought of as good. You know, Koch brothers bad or whoever the
right ones are bad. But the ones that are
thought of as good they sorta think that they
can give away enough money or say enough things
that it will save them. But it will never
save them, right? In the eye ultimately
of the base, no matter if they could
give away everything, they can destroy their
fortunes and empires and it just it will never end. Do you think they just
don’t realize that? Or it’s like, you
just have to do it no matter what ’cause
you wanna survive? – Do they not realize it, yeah, they don’t really have a choice. But they are playing with fire. I mean, they have
to realize that to the extent that they
continue feeding this, and Mark Benioff is
just a great example, there he is in San Francisco
promoting this idea that San Francisco’s not done enough to help the homeless,
and, you know? We need to save the
children and whatnot through just endless bulking
up of the bureaucracy without dealing with
the profound questions of norms, public
norms of behavior. He probably thinks he
can buy exoneration but it’s just not gonna happen because again it’s
all connected. The same left that has been
dominating homeless politics in San Francisco for decades,
the Coalition on Homelessness, they are connected to
the entire woke discourse whether it’s regards
to illegal aliens or white supremacy or
male toxic masculinity it’s all part of the same thing. – So let’s shift
actually towards the homeless portion of this. ‘Cause I watched this
morning a talk that you did about the San
Francisco situation, which everyone know is horrific. I’ve told this story
a million times but when I was there
about a year ago I went out to dinner
with a friend. And we were at
Morton’s Steakhouse, so it’s a nice street we’re
on, supposedly nice street. Our car got broken into
right outside the restaurant. They stole my bag and my
notebook and all this stuff. And I took a picture
of the broken glass and I tweeted it out. And I kid you not,
I got hundreds if not thousands of responses basically all saying
the same thing: Dave what kind of idiot leaves a bag in a
car in San Francisco? Because there is such
an epidemic of break-ins that they know that, regular people know not
to leave a bag in a car. What is happening up there? – Well, it’s happening
across the country. We’re in a massive
process of de-norming. We are unraveling every standard in the name of racial justice. So what happened in your car, that’s a product largely
of Proposition 47, one of the ballot
initiatives in California that downgraded a whole
bunch of felonies, including felony theft
to misdemeanor status because of the problem
of criminal laws having a disparate
impact on minorities. – Do you think the people
that are pushing these laws that it’s the road to hell is paved to good
intentions always, do you think that
they really think they’re doing something good even though all the evidence always points to the
fact that it gets worse after these policies
are implemented? – I think you’ve said yourself you’re not a big fan
of conspiracy theories. I’m not either. I really, I take
people at their words. I think that they
really do believe that the over-representation
of blacks in prison is due to criminal
justice racism and that we’re
throwing a whole bunch of trivial offenders in
prison, which is not the case. You have to work very hard to get yourself a
prison sentence. Most, any big city
you’re triaged out. If you steal somebody’s car a DA is gonna be completely
uninterested in you. You have to steal it at gunpoint with the driver still
in to get a big city DA interested in actually
prosecuting your case as opposed to just
giving you probation and sending you on your way. But, no, I think that they
really do believe that the criminal justice
system is racist and that the way to solve
that is to not prosecute, not put people, and
de-fang the police. And, of course, the
problem is, yes, there’s a vast
over-representation
of blacks in prison but the thing we should
be concerned about is that blacks are
victimized by crime the most. And I go to community meetings in inter-city
neighborhoods all the time. Those good law-abiding
bourgeois residents of high crime neighborhoods
beg for more police protection. Those are the voices
that never get heard. – So when these policies
are put in place or like in New York City de
Blasio has now done this thing where you’re allowed
to jump the turnstile, they will not stop you. So it’s like you’re basically
saying to everybody that pays, right, and I lived in New York
City most of my adult life, I never jumped a turnstile. You’re basically saying:
If you pay you’re an idiot. Like, why should you do it? So they’re actually encouraging
more and more people to not follow the law. – I know. And AOC has as well. I mean, this is really
for a politician to defend turnstile jumping should be, that’s an
impeachable offense. Because social
norms are fragile. And respect for the rule of law is the essence of
a civilization. We lose that and you
get third world anarchy with everybody trying
to game the system. You know, queuing is
a thing of beauty. We take it for granted. But for people to be able
to quietly wait in line and wait their place as
opposed to trying to, you know, get to the top and
just muscle everybody else out, break the rules,
whatever, to get ahead. That is, has been a sort
of normal condition. And respect for the rule, for the law is
incredibly precious. And to say it doesn’t matter, and the police
should walk on by. You are playing with fire. You are on the road to anarchy. – Do you sense that
we’re in a much more precarious place right now related to that
then we’ve ever been or at least or maybe in the
last let’s say 50 years, something like that? – Well, we had this
extraordinary revolution that nobody foresaw
in the 1990s. In the ’80s the reigning wisdom
in law enforcement itself was that police could
do nothing about crime, that crime was a product of
inequality and injustice. And until you solved poverty
and economic inequalities all the police could do
would respond after the fact. So why even bother? – So this is like
why New York City and especially Times
Square was a drug den when I was growin’ up
goin’ into the city. – Because police
would just walk on by. The FBI publishes an
annual crime report. Throughout the ’80s they
had a disclaimer saying: Well, of course, we know
homicide is a social problem that the police can’t solve. So the ’90s had this
incredible profound moment where that whole
ideology of passivity before social anarchy
was turned on it’s head and you had Mayor
Giuliani coming in. Giuliani on his good days, I don’t know what’s
happened to him now it’s very depressing to me but he was one of
the greatest mayors if not the greatest
mayor New York ever had. And his Police Commissioner
William Bratten said: No, we are actually gonna, the
police are gonna lower crime by enforcing the law. And we learned that
enforcement matters. You change people’s behavior,
you deter criminal offending and they started
paying attention to those low level
crimes in Times Square, the squalor, the
turnstile jumping, the graffiti, the
urinating in the streets. And they changed public norms. And the whole broken
windows theory is correct. And even if it doesn’t
prevent higher level crimes it’s what people in high
crime neighborhoods beg for. They want public
order on the streets. And now that is all
being thrown away. And again the reason
is disparate impact. – So, all right, so as
someone that deals in fact and that’s what your
books have been about, and that’s why my
audience digs what you do. Do you ever find
that sometimes facts just aren’t enough to
change the discourse– – Yes.
– So, it’s like. Oh, right, well then. Then, okay, we could
probably move on. No, but, so how do you
deal with that then? ‘Cause I find this
to be the most sorta strangest place for
conservatives to be right now. Which is that most of
the facts seem to be on the conservative side
of things at the moment. Like it just seems to
be reality right now. But I think conservatives
have a really hard time breaking through either
the cultural part I think that’s actually
really changing right now partially ’cause a Trump. But sometimes facts just
aren’t enough right? I mean I was telling you,
right, when you sat down we were talking about
the homeless thing, the Target that’s a
half mile from my house there is a massive
homeless encampment. Massive, I mean,
it’s like a city there now when I go to Target. And it’s like, well,
I could talk about why some of the reasons
that you just laid out are allowing this to expand. But a lot a people
don’t wanna hear that. – Well, you know,
this is something that you have been
thinking about for much longer than I have of: How do you change minds? What is the nature of
rational discourse? What is it’s limits? And you know we learn from
people like Jonathan Haidt that in fact reason often
acts as a after the fact justification for people’s
instinctive value systems and ways of looking
at the world. So while I would like
to claim non-ironically that I have the
facts on my side. And in fact I believe that. I mean, that’s what drives me. And it’s sort of a hatred
of what I call: Idiocy. I have to acknowledge that the progressives would
say the same thing. They would say: My God can’t
you see the relevant facts? For me one of the dividing lines between a conservative
and a liberal outlook is that liberals or progressives will tend to see structural
explanations for inequality as the most powerful ones. And conservatives
are more inclined to see individual choice,
personal responsibility, personal behavior
as more significant in leading to ultimate
social outcomes with economic disparities. And so a liberal is gonna say: But can’t you see the facts of people growing up
in very different
economic circumstances, there’s not equal
opportunity yet, so how can we possibly demand one single set of
behaviors from people? And they would not
view the facts, for me, probably the
most profound fact of our social existence today is the breakdown of the family. And if this continues going you cannot have a
civilization that way. – Right but as you know– – Liberals won’t see that. – Right, well, that’s the
thing if you say that to them and well we see
this all the time. If you say that to
them what do they say? – Racist.
– You’re racist. – You’re a racist, right? – So you’re being
extremely kind to them by saying that they’re
dealing in their facts. But it’s like they’re
dealing in their facts at just sort of a
different layer, that the real facts are beneath. – Generally again I’m
not gonna say that all of the hypocrisy
or blindness is on one side and the other. I will however say
this, I do think that the silencing tactics of
liberals are not symmetrical. I don’t think that
conservatives have that all-purpose silencing tactic, which is to call
somebody a racist. So in that respect
I do think that there is more open-mindedness
on the side of conservatives. But again all I can, you know, you’ve been in
these environments as well, you know all the arguments. They have arguments. We don’t find them persuasive, they don’t find our
arguments persuasive. How you change minds
in the face of that is the big mystery of our time. And I know that again I
grew up in liberal default. What changed my mind is
starting to do reporting and go into environments, I started doing
journalism in the the ’90s in this great renaissance of
New York under Mayor Giuliani who was taking on one
sacred cow after another whether it was the
welfare industrial complex or the crime justifications. And I would go to
homeless shelters. And I would go to
welfare offices. And I would talk to the clients. And I would hear things that
the left would characterize as: Oh, that’s just Ronald Reagan, his disparagement
of welfare cuts. The welfare clients
themselves would say: You know these welfare mothers they’re just having more babies to increase their welfare check. And I would say, The New
York Times goes here, how do they not hear this? – Well, they don’t wanna hear it because it’s too counter
to the narrative. – Yes. – One of the most
interesting examples of what you just said there, David Horowitz once
told me this story, he told me this privately. I’m sure I can say it publicly,
it wasn’t on the show. But he said that he
was in New York City in the early ’80s when the
AIDS crisis was booming. And this is right when he
sort of made his conversion from a lefty to a conservative. And he said that they all knew it was coming out of
the gay bath houses. You know, these people
are having orgies and there’s drugs
and all this stuff. And they knew it
was proliferating and it was killing people. And that basically
the republicans, the
conservatives said: We have to close
down the bathhouses because there’s this massive
public health crisis. And the democrats
because the road to hell is paved with good
intentions said: You guys are a
bunch a homophobes. You can’t tell gay
people what to do. So they were trying
to do something nice, we like gay people, let
them do whatever they want. The republicans
sorta sound mean, we’re not gonna let
the gays do that. And then what did it do? It exacerbated the
situation even more. So there’s a lot of that,
what you just laid out there. – And I would also say, I mean, this is another
classic example of the divide between
liberals and conservatives. The liberal
definition is somehow this is Ronald Reagan’s fault. And AIDS is treated
as a airborne disease without the acknowledgment that it is absolutely
behaviorally motivated. You can avoid it
a hundred percent by not engaging in
certain behaviors, by acting personally
responsibly. You can say the same thing
about campus rape, you know? – Well, not a hundred percent
just to be totally clear. You could get a
transfusion that’s botched. – True but that’s minor part. The real transmission
was in sexual contact. And that’s true for
heterosexual sex as well. But again that
reluctance to say, there are things that
individuals can do that, ironically, look at, just
notice they tend to be things that do conform to
traditional behaviors. Which is sexual
prudence and modesty and self restraint protect you. And, again, let me just
say, the campus rape thing it’s the same thing. You could avoid a
hundred percent, virtually a hundred percent
what is called: Campus rape, by, on the female’s part,
by not getting drunk and getting in bed with
a guy you barely know because the amount
of stranger rapes going on on college campuses
are minute, they barely go up. – That’s meaning just
a guy that finds a girl walking on the street– – Gets into your,
breaks into your room and uses knife or force. Campus rape is a
voluntary sexual encounter that is a hundred
percent avoidable if you don’t wanna get involved. – So you know that
that’s gonna be the part that gets clipped out of this– – And I’m happy to defend it. Right.
– Yeah. So when you hear– – I believe women have power. You know what, I don’t wanna
give any sort of nauseating strong feminist bromides here but the fact of the matter is is that females do have power to determine most
of the outcomes of their lives today,
especially today. – So the message
though that we hear when we hear about this
campus rape epidemic really I guess the
way you’re framing it is that it boils down to it’s almost as if the
left that’s pushing this they think women
have no capacity– – Of course.
– Over their own lives. – It’s infantilizing. This has been pointed
out many times. The rules on campus are:
A male who’s very drunk is responsible for his actions and the actions of the female, a female who is very drunk has
no responsibility for herself and she certainly doesn’t have
responsibility for the male. Now I would frankly be very
happy if we’d go through a full throated revival
of Victorian ethics. I believe that chivalry
is an important value and it civilizes males, that for males to regard females as something worthy of respect. And to reign in their
power and strength to have a sense of dignity
of females and of themselves. That’s a very good thing. And I also believe
it’s a very good thing for females to realize that the
male libido is not the same. To be honest about the extraordinary hunger
of the male libido. And to exercise their
own control over that. But you can’t have it both ways. You can’t decide that we’re gonna celebrate
female promiscuity at the same time
that you’re gonna hammer males for
taking advantage of the sexual caravansary
that we’ve created. – Right and then you
hear these crazy stories. I’m sure you heard the
one a couple months ago about the guy and
girl that got drunk and then the next morning they both accused
each other of rape because they basically wanted to beat the other
one to the punch. – Sure the principles,
absolutely, do the principles, right. And so much of
this is also just, uh-oh I cheated on my boyfriend. – [Dave] Right, you feel
bad the next morning. – Yeah, absolutely. – And then social media
just brings this thing to a whole other level, right, because then just everyone is
just at everyone’s throats. – Well we’re desperate to find another example of rape culture. It’s very hard to find. You know, in fact, again. – What would be rape, like, when they say:
We have a rape culture. Rape culture really would be, certainly it’s not in America. – No, it’s in India,
it’s in Afghanistan. It’s like being forced
to be in a hut in Nepal, in rural Nepal if
you’re menstruating. It’s a tolerance for group rape. That is, finally,
you know, people, women in India
are finally trying to sort of push
back against this. But in a lot of
Afghan villages it’s, the problem is now the female
is now banned from the village because there was
rape with force. But please do not tell me that females in this country are
victimized by rape culture. In fact, females from the
time that they are sentient are the target of non-stop
messages of female empowerment. You go girls, Girls Who Code,
whatnot, it’s incessant. It’s the males in
our culture today who get no positive
encouragement. And they are withdrawing. The failure of males, you can see it in the social
indicators, is huge because– – Suicide rates, all that. – Absolutely. They are told that they are the bearers of
toxic masculinity. This is a very dangerous
thing that we’re playing with. – What tools have you seen
to get men out of that? I mean, I think Jordan
Peterson was as close to a sort of mass move to get
young men out of this thing. – Right, I think we need more
voices like you and Peterson. And if somebody was
a political genius to try and organize
your followers because they’re out there. But they need to be more
vocal and more empowered. I mean, one of
the things I love, but, again, this is precluded
by the moment we live in. I think the boy scouts was one
of the greatest inventions. This was an invention
to try and help poor inter-city kids that were themselves the subject
of breakdown of social mores. But it gives boys a code
of virtue, and goodness, and honesty and achievement. But unfortunately the gay lobby put the boy scouts
out of existence. Corporate money dried up. You’ve never seen
such a thing of beauty as an inner-city scout troupe. I’ve been in church basements
in Bensonhurst, Brooklyn to see these little
kids tying knots, pledging allegiance to the flag. It breaks my heart
that corporate America has been bludgeoned into
supporting inner-city scouting because the employees said: You cannot support a
homophobic institution. It is tragic. – All right, so let’s dive
into that a little bit. So I’m with you
that the gay lobby they attacked and tried to
basically destroy the boy scouts but you as a person would you, I know you don’t
wanna push your values on the boy scouts per se. Would you have cared if there
had been a gay scout master, you personally? – I wouldn’t have cared on a– – Because that’s really what
it seems to have boiled down to when the lobby moved on them. – I don’t know. You know I would be
sympathetic with parents who were worried about child
abuse on a camping trip. It’s a small risk. But it is a risk nonetheless. I’m sorry, let’s be
honest, it is a risk. So I would say the
good compromise was you don’t have to be
out about it perhaps. But I just don’t think,
I don’t think that issue is relevant for the vast
majority of scouting especially again
in the inner-city. It’s just not relevant
for these kids what their stance
is on homosexuality doesn’t really matter. – Right, see, well
that’s the part. So I agree it doesn’t matter. I would wanna know what
the numbers bear out I suppose relative to like
a predator infiltrating and then molesting a kid. Obviously, you don’t want that. But yes, I think the way
that the lobby comes in and then just bludgeons them to, you gotta do what
we want you to do thus sort of destroying
all the goodness there. I’m completely in line
with you on that one. – Yeah, I guess I
would just say again the kids are more important
than asserting gay identity. There’s plenty of other
places to have gay pride. You don’t have to do
it in the boy scouts. – So with that in
mind are you concerned that all of our institutions are gonna succumb to this stuff? It seems like everything’s– – They already have. No, no it is not. I mean we wanna be
optimistic, you know, you don’t wanna be (laughs).
– We’re all pretending now, we’re past that point. – ‘Cause I know you think
that 2020 is gonna be the year it all crashes apart, that identity politics
is self defeating, it can’t go any further. I wish I shared that view. – Yes, so I’m basically, well, what I think is
gonna really happen not that it will ever
burn out completely ‘because I think it is
so psychotic in nature and unhinged from reality but I think this
election will cause it to have a necessary split,
something like that. So the split that we
talked about earlier about the AOC and Biden should
not be in the same party. I think enough people are
gonna fully realize that that the social justice worries will carve out whatever
their thing is. And then the other sane
people will have to decide: Are we still democrats or are
we gonna become republicans? But yes, I don’t know will
it crash to the point of that they’re gonna give up. Well, these people show no
signs of ever giving up. – Well again, I hate
to sound apocalyptic but, again, this
is a genetic thing. I know that I’m inclined
towards that by definition. But it is impossible
to overstate the power of the assault on meritocratic standards
in our culture today. Colorblind, gender blind,
meritocratic standards. There’s not a single institution that is not on the defensive. If it has any kind of
achievement standard that has any kind
of disparate impact that does not result in exact
proportional representation whether it’s 50/50
males or females or minority based
representation. Any standard whether it’s in
the STEM fields in science that does not result in that halcyon proportional
representation is
now under assault. Every corporation– – There might be some Christian
private school, right, that has withstood some of
this, something like that? – Yeah, that’s
dedicated the classics. – Yeah, maybe has
fought some of it. – I mean, I’m always cheered
on whenever I see a panel that’s coming out of some
think tank and it’s all males. I think, ah, one
last run, you know? And frankly let’s be honest. I mean, what I track is
the natural experiments. They absolutely explode
the feminist explanation because there are a few
institutions out there without any gatekeepers. And so it allows you
to test the explanation for lack of 50/50 male/female is inevitably sexist
discrimination. So let’s look at the
places with no gatekeepers. A, that’s Wikipedia. The editors of Wikipedia
there’s no barriers, there’s no historical
preference for Wikipedia. – I know where you’re
goin’ with this but it ends up being mostly men. – It’s overwhelmingly male. Why? Because males on average and I’m not talking
about your daughter, Ben Rubin, the Dave
Rubin listener. She’s gonna be a Nobelist but on average males are
more interested in facts, in things, in ideas, in
accuracy, in sports trivia. And they’re the ones that wanna get involved
in that discourse. Recently we saw there
was the historic matchup of three greatest
Jeopardy winners. They were all male. If you look at, I wrote
about Scrabble championship. There’s no barriers
to entry for Scrabble. Like, all of the winners
throughout history of a very short history
have all been males. – So if we were
to take this back to what we discussed earlier where then the
lefties would maybe look at a separate set
of facts to explain that they would say something like: Well, it’s because we teach boys to care more about math
or something like that. You would just say, no, that’s
there’s biology before that. – Absolutely, absolutely. Turns out the most
gender equal countries are the ones that have
the biggest disparities in preference for professions. – [Dave] So this is
The Sweden Experiment. – Exactly, exactly. And again this has not
been the case for so long. We’ve had, again,
strong females together. That has been the ethos of American education
now for decades. It is just not
possible to say that females are being
discouraged from math. They are being encouraged
at every single moment. That there’s any male
mathematicians is a miracle. It just shows how strong
that imperative is at the extreme versions. Again we all know that
distribution curves males are the
worst math dummies. But they also at the highest
end the most math gifted. – Do you think that there’s just a certain amount
of cognitive dissonance that comes with a lot of this? Like, did you happen to
see a couple weeks ago Stephen King sent out a tweet that he’s against
diversity in arts because, of course, you
wouldn’t want painters and authors and creative people to have to have some
sort of diversity quota. But this guy’s a
lefty progressive, you know, the whole thing. And he’s definitely
for diversity quotas in all the other
things but not in arts. – [Heather] Ha, wow. – And I think it’s partly
because he’s an artist. So it’s like, not in my
field because we’re creative and creativity should
always rise to the top. But for you people. But in essence what
he’s saying is: Well, doctors and pilots
and the rest of you, you should, it should
be based on skin color and sexuality and
blah, blah, blah but not artists ’cause we’re. – Hilarious, well, I’ll take it. I mean if he’s actually
willing to defend the arts because that is, I mean
anybody who subjects themself to The New York Times
Arts Pages today it’s, all it is, it,
all it is is diversity, female and people
of color diversity. So his position it
may be a narrow one but I’ll take it because– – Right, ’cause they’re the
kernels there at least, right? So then it’s like maybe
somethin’ can grow out of that. – Yes but it’s also
on the other hand I really relish the fact that
Hollywood is being pressed to sacrifice it’s best
box office judgment for the gods of diversity. And are they, they’re
absolutely torn. Which do they do? Do they choose to have
female remakes, you know, that may not be the
box office sellers or may not be as good
in order to placate the Oscar bean counting and
the Golden Globe bean counting? Or do they just say:
To hell with it, we’re just gonna tough it out. I don’t know, I don’t know. But it’s really great. – Yeah, what an interesting
time to live in. So I sense you’re
pretty enthused about sort of the way the world is. But like everybody sorta seems, everyone feels like it’s
crazy, it’s never been worse. We hate each other
more than ever before. I mean I think all of
that is nonsense anyway. And social media makes us
all feel a little crazier. But you seem to, even though
this is serious stuff. I mean, you’re talking about institutions all being infected. You got a smile on your face
as you’re talking to me– – Yeah but it’s a pleasure to
have a fellow skeptic here. And I would say to get back to
an earlier question of yours: Are we heading towards
a point of no return and how do we get
back from this? This is the most
difficult thing. The way we actually
demolish identity politics and again the founding engine
of this is disparate impact. We have to counteract
the myth of bias, that as long as the only
allowable explanation for socioeconomic disparities is the Ta-Nehisi Coates
view of the world, the Michelle Alexander
view of the world that everything
is driven by bias, the AOC world, they win. – But if we’ve lost
the schools already, which I suspect
you think we have. Certainly at college level. But even if we’ve lost– – K-12, ethnic studies– – Yeah if we’ve lost all of that then suddenly this rosy picture gets a lot more murky, right? – Yes. I am not a rosy person. All I know is the
way we get it back is to start giving
alternative explanations. And if people are
terrified to talk about, no excuse me there are
behaviors, the education gap I mean, what we see
now it’s tragic. Your average black 12th grader reads at the level of your
average white eighth grader. That is huge. 40% of black eighth graders on the National Assessment
of Educational Progress this is one of these
national standardized test, 40% of black eighth graders do not even have
basic math skills. Basic is the most, it’s,
you know, simple arithmetic. Those types of statistics
make this expectation of proportional
representation ludicrous. And yet the
cowardice on the part of our mainstream institutions
cannot be overstated. Within the last couple weeks The American
Physics Association, the premier professional
organization for physicists came out with a
completely predictable just beating Mea culpa saying: If we do not have
proportional black physicists it’s because we are biased, there must be bias in
our credentializing, in our physics education. These are people who we’re
supposed to believe are smart. If they can’t look at the data– – It’s anti-human
actually, in many ways. It’s anti-human. – It’s saying you have
no control, you know? But what has to happen is
there has to be a major change in inner-city black culture to get rid of the
anti-acting white stigma. There has to be
behavioral change, a different attitude towards
academic accomplishment. But as long as the myth of bias, as long as bias is
the only explanation, as long as The American
Physics Association does not feel
itself able to say: There needs to be more studying, students have to take their
textbooks home in K-8, less truancy, nothing
is gonna change. – Do you think in a
weird way that Asians might be the key to
this whole thing? That basically Asians
will get fed up of being quota-ed against
and not getting into Harvard even though no one gave
Asian people anything just like no one gave
my ancestors anything or your ancestors anything? But Asians may just be
like, you know what, Harvard is actually, everyone
talks about systemic racism. Harvard has actually
put it in the system. It’s harder to get
in if you’re Asian. – Right.
– Right. And now the courts have
said that’s actually okay, which is bananas. But that basically Asian
people will get so fed up, even though they’re not
a very vocal minority they’ll get so fed up about being genuinely
discriminated against that perhaps that
fixes the problem? I mean, it’s almost
a very backwards way of looking at this thing. – No, it’s a great idea. And indeed the Chinese
in New York now there’s also a big
Chinese parent movement because Bill de Blasio and
his utterly terrifying– – Yeah, he’s a real piece a work that guy.
– School’s chancellor Carranza are trying to destroy again
every meritocratic standard. Get rid of it. It’s all gonna be
based on quotas. So the Chinese parents there are protesting the destruction
of Stuyvesant High School and Bronx Science. But on the other hand it’s
really a race against time because Harvard in
it’s recent lawsuit defending itself against Ed Blum and the challenge to it’s
discrimination against Asians they assembled a big crew
of Asian Harvard students who were defending preferences. – Can you explain what
their rational was? I heard a couple
versions of this. – Just diversity. And you know, we got in,
so like it didn’t hurt us. But I think the rationale is, is that the lure of identity
politics and being anti-white is the key to the elite. That elite identity
in this country now is against establishment values and it’s against meritocracy. And it’s a commitment to
the idea of white supremacy. So to the extent that colleges can end up cloning
Asian students in their own image
of identity politics. And it is happening. I mean, you can
go to UC Berkeley. You know, the degree
of specialization of the different
ethnic groups there. You know, so you have
the Philippino club and the Samoan club. Where everybody, there’s
power in victimhood. And the sort of
laughable irony is that, so a lot of these left
wing Asian students want to be viewed as
students of color, you know, please, please we’re
students of color as well. The irony is is that
the administration said: No, you’re not
students of color. You don’t count as
our students of color. – Right, your minority
thing doesn’t count. – You’re whites for
the sake of our quotas. Your guys are white. So the poor students went
wait a minute, wait a minute. When will we get to
be students of color? – But now they’re super white. They’re not just white, right? Like, they’re extra white now. – They trump whites,
that’s right. Whites are actually, you know, get preferences over
Asians, so I don’t know. It’s a really good
question about self interest versus ideology. And again the lure of ideology and we see this
also with Indians, Indian-Americans in this
culture, the east Indians. – That’ll be the next one. – They’re very left wing. – But do you think that that, they’ll sort of suffer the fate of Chinese Americans
or something like that and that it eventually
it’ll turn it on them too? – Yeah, they’re
discriminated against. I mean the head of Google, the guy who fired James
Damore for writing, you’ve talked about
this, you know, a perfectly fact-based memo
about psychological truths, things that the psychology
profession has known for years about the big five
personality traits, one of which unfortunately
is called: Neuroticism. Poor mister innocent Damore
used the word neuroticism and everybody freaked out. But sorry that’s the
psychology terms. – James Damore who by the
way had gotten the promotion for his job just two
months before the memo. – He’s a fantastic engineer. He would have helped Google but God forbid he put females
at risk for saying that: The reason there’s
not more females here is because average distribution
of personality preferences. Anyway, but, Sundar Pichai
he’s Indian-American. And a lot of the
schools chancellor’s in the University of California that are doing all of
the multiculturalism BS they’re Indian engineers. So it’s very curious. The trans thing, a lot of
the parents are Indian. So again it shows the gravitational force
of victim identity, that that is how you
credentialize yourself to enter the American elite is to buy into this idea that this is a racist
and sexist society. – So you just briefly mentioned
the trans thing there. Have you read Douglas Murray’s Madness of Crowds by any chance? – [Heather] Mm hm, yeah. – So, you know, one
of the things that I think he brilliantly does is he separates the T from LGB. He says: These things have
nothing to do with each other. Do you basically
take that position and sorta see why
the trans movement has sort of spun
off into something that’s completely not
about equality now? – Yeah, it’s so
clearly a power play. Why anybody takes these 14, 16 year olds seriously,
at face value. The desire of every
adolescent is power, it is to be able to bend adults
and the world to your will. And this is the most brilliant– – We call this Greta Thunberg– – Exactly.
– Syndrome. – But to be trans
has even more power because you can trip people up in an ever more arcane
linguistic thicket. And if they make the most innocuous linguistic
error, they are guilty. And so you are, it is a way of asserting
power over the world. And it’s endlessly
fertile and fecund. It generates more
and more categories. And it is something, amazingly, I mean nobody thought
about this five years ago. And now we’re all supposed to
believe that this represents some essential truth
about human nature where again it is just a
way of clawing to the top of the viciously competitive
totem pole of victimhood. And being top dog for
as long as it lasts. And who knows, you know,
big sweepstake award to whoever can come up
with the next victim that will de-throne
the trans identity. But it will come. – Right and that’s
gonna be a big one. Like, what that one
could possibly be. – It’s something fun
to look forward to. – Right. So I take it when Biden said
that when you’re going to jail you should be able to pick
which prison to go to. Does that dependent on your
decision about your own gender? You’re not a big fan a that. – No but again
look at the power. There you are a prisoner. And you get to flip
the tables and say, now, you, state prison authority
or federal prison authority you have to bend to my will. It’s just incredible. I remember the time it was
maybe somewhere of 2014 The Times ran a front
full page editorial announcing the dawn
of the trans era. This was the new
civil rights campaign. And it’s just not true. Again, there’s a very
minute number of people for whom this is authentically
a psychological disorder. But I think for most of it, I’ve talked to college campuses and I don’t really address
the trans phenomenon but in one talk at
St. Olaf I just gave, I read a section,
a piece of prose that was written
by some trans guy who was all, his head was
all like tied in knots because he was
trying to figure out when his gay friends
called each other she and her in a gay rhetoric and then they referred to
this trans person, Alex as she and her, whether they
were respecting his identity, disrespecting her. And I thought and my point
was, this is so trivial. This is so trivial. You guys should be thinking about things
outside of yourself. How ’bout you lose
yourself in the past. That’s difference. But that was my only
reference to this. And this girl came up to
me afterwards and said: You’re not respecting
my identity. This was just again
another pitch for power. And where it goes
but it’s ridiculous. It is not something that
is a civilizational truism, this is something we should
all take that seriously. – Yeah this seems to
be the one I think that is actually helping let’s
say our side the most. Because it is so
patently absurd. If you just can’t say that there are
biological differences
between men and women that doesn’t make you a bigot, it doesn’t make
you a transphobe, it doesn’t mean you hate women. But it’s something
that we all just like, we just know, right? My four year old niece knows there’s a difference
between boys and girls. She’s not a rocket scientist. So something, it’s
almost like this one they overshot to the point that it might cause a
little bit of a bounce back, which goes to
again my prediction of the implosion of this thing. – Look at North Carolina. I don’t know, I mean, there
you had this conservative state that buckled under
corporate pressure. Again, corporations,
everybody thinks: There’s a AOC thing, oh, big business,
evil, white supremacy. No! – Or you can get them
to do almost anything. – Corporations, they’ve all got, the CEOs have wives,
wives are a disaster. They push husbands to the left. And they have human
resources departments as the Google employee said
in one of the chat rooms after Damore was fired: We have to kick this thing
back because our HR department known in Google-y language
is people analytics ’cause you can’t just
call it human resources. He said: It’s just an
outpost of women’s studies and black studies now. So these corporations are
promoting the trans thing. And far too many parents are. I did think that when
the dictates started
coming down that parents have to let their
girl, their daughters have biological males in their
locker rooms and bathrooms that there would be
just pitchfork battles and it didn’t happen. I keep waiting for the
massive rejection of this, it’s not happening. School after school district
is enacting trans policies. So you show me where besides the Navratilova
and Rowlings that this has actually put any
kind of dent in this crusade. – Well, I think Ricky Gervais’
speech at The Golden Globes where he just torched
identity politics and torched this very town
that we’re in right now. I think the J.K. Rowling thing. I think Martina speaking up and then them attacking
her about trans athletes. I think it’s just
starting to bubble up. Which way that
goes, we don’t know. But I think it’s people are
getting a little bit braver. – I hope so. – Don’t Burn This Book
comes out on April 28th. It’s about giving people the
keys to the bravery thing. – Believe me, everybody’s got
it in their calendar marked. – All right, we only have
a couple minutes left. You plow through so much
information at once. And I feel like we’ve been
talking for 10 minutes but it’s been about
an hour already. – Okay, I don’t
wanna go over time. So what else has sorta
been on your mind? Like what is somethin’
that maybe I’m not tracking or that you think regular
folks aren’t tracking that you sorta see
as another frontier we’re gonna have
to be fighting on? – Oh, man, that’s a bad
question, without an answer. – Without an answer. Well, you said what’s gonna
be the spectacular one that knocks trans off this. But is there somethin’ else that you’re sorta
seeing new data on or just that’s piquing
your interest lately? – No I’m just paying a lot of, I still for me, my heart
lies in universities. For me there’s no greater good than the privilege of being
able to study the great works. And so I keep hoping that
there will be push back there. I guess I’ve seen there
are some signs of hope in movement to start classical
academies at the K-12 level that are explicitly dedicated to teaching the great books
without identity politics. I think that movement
has to be supported. I wish philanthropists
would do more to put their money
behind beauty and wit and irony and greatness
and sublimity. I think that nobody’s
cracked the problem of the college credentializing
and the fierce hunger of these allegedly
left wing parents to credentialize their child with the most status
producing diplomas possible. I would love to see a movement to have a revival of tutors, which used to be the way
that people got educated. So, home schooling
for college kids because we’ve got to shut
these institutions down so that you could have– – By the way I think
that’s happening right now because of YouTube. I think the amount of stuff
that people are learning from pretty brilliant people many of whom have
sat in that chair and in plenty of other shows. I think it’s happening already. I think people are being,
well, The New York Times, did you see The New
York Times piece a couple weeks ago
about Prager U? That the right
wing organization– – That’s the second one,
they’re terrifying, yeah. – It’s circumventing
parents and professors to teach people
right wing views. It’s like they try to make
that sound scary but, whoo! It’s like, thank God. – I adore Prager U, I
adore Dennis Prager. I would say those, he’s doing
basically political topics which is absolutely necessary. He is taking on the lies that
are so distorting our world that he’s not taking
people through books one through
12 of Paradise Lost. One needs time, one needs
depth, one needs focus. And so I would love to see, basically there’s a
lot of graduate schools in this department
now, in this country that are not
accepting white males because they know they
are not gonna get the job. I mean, white males, boys are doomed at this point
unless we turn this around. – I can’t remember
if I told you this the last time you were here but the guy who did the
lighting in my studio is a, you know, we’re in L.A. here so you get great
people to do things. He’s an Emmy Award
wining lighting guy. He’s in his mid-60s, been in the business for 40
some odd years, huge lefty lefty, lefty, lefty,
progressive the whole thing. We get into all sorts
of political debates and then we kind of
put it aside, it’s okay ’cause he’s a progressive
of a certain age so he doesn’t have to
wanna kill you at the end– – He can talk.
– He can do it and never wanna
kill you at the end. Anyway he did our lighting. He did a spectacular job. I spoke to him a few months ago, and he told me that he was told by an HR person at a
major studio here in L.A., I won’t say which studio that as a white guy in his 60s he should probably
think about retiring. – Yep, absolutely. – And then suddenly,
oh, so the reason, so then he called
me and he said: Dave, maybe you
haven’t been as crazy as I’ve been telling ya. – Ah, God. Well, a lot of
people process, yeah. Balise Siegel, this
writer had a op-ed in The New York Times
recently about his depression and that America we’ve got
this crisis of mental health, which I’m a little
skeptical about. But anyway he said: Well,
as a 62 year old white male I, of course, I really
support the movements that have basically made me
completely super annuated. So he sees it too. It’s just remarkable. But anyway I would say if
there’s any white males who are still doing traditional
studies in graduate school and are not getting
a job anywhere they should be tutors. They should say: I’ll take
you on the grand tour, we’ll go to Rome,
we’ll go to Florence, we’ll go to Vienna, and we
will read the great books to keep these books alive because if we don’t
read them, they die. The burden is on us. Education is about
passing on an inheritance. And we should be down on
our knees in gratitude before works of such
exquisite language and insight into
the human condition instead of this preposterous conceit of cultural
appropriation. I mean some of the
most profound insights into female sexual
psychology and competition have been written by males. Should I care that it’s a male? No, I don’t, I just
want beauty and insight. So that’s what I would hope is our next phase
to get out of this. – Man, heather, all I have to
do is just lob ’em up for ya and you knock ’em
outta the park. It was a pleasure as always. – Thank you so much. – We’ll do this
again soon enough. – Great talking to you. – And you’re not big
on Twitter though. You don’t fight with
everybody on Twitter. You’re on the Twitter. – Twitter is just to send out my recent writings
and appearances. – A good enough
reason to follow her. It’s @HMDatMI. If you’re lookin’
for more honest and thoughtful
conversations about politics instead a non-stop yelling
check out our politics playlist. And if you wanna watch full interviews on
a variety of topics watch our full episode
playlist all right over here. And to get notified
of all future videos be sure to subscribe and
click the notification bell.

Author Since: Mar 11, 2019

  1. Very bad example on gosple and Torah.. it's clear she don't know what Torah teaches. She coming at it from a Christian theology of what Gd is. obviously she don't have a clue about Gd.

  2. Heather, well done.

    Unfortunately reason, Tradition, masculinity and hierarchy, are at odds with Cultural-Marxism.

    End of story.

  3. …”I don’t know if any culture that says murder is ok.” But there are, in fact, existing cultures that say murder is ok. They may not call it murder because murder is a legal term. But certainly North Korea, China, Russia, Iran, Saudia Arabia, Seria, Rwanda, and many others, murder, or kill, their own citizens fairly routinely.

  4. Not cool how she takes it upon herself to act like she knows what's in President Trump's heart. How does she know if he believes in God? She's just guessing and acting mighty sure of her opinion. Obviously she doesn't like the man but she's doing what she claims the left is doing

  5. Always insightful and imbued with reason. It’s a shame fact based coherent discord is no longer a cornerstone of discussion. People like this give me hope that rational truth will prevail. Even if they themselves rightly point out things seem bleak.

  6. Did she just say that gay people are likely to sexually assault children they work with? I expected her to be challenged on that idea that parents are right to protect their children from gay people.

  7. How does she know all those dying are so innocent? Not claiming it is false, but how would she know unless she has been there meeting them. Maybe the events are occurring for a reason we are unable to see or understand right now.

  8. I don't think she really gets what religion means to these guys or why it shaped their lives. I'm not religious but I understand Dennis

  9. I like Heather Mac Donald. My only pet peeve of her is her use of the word: "anarchy", using it when she should be saying "chaos". Anarchy is simply having rules without rulers. But what she describes, lawlessness and the rest, is really chaos. Social chaos. Etc.

  10. Heather Mac Donald is excellent, but even she seems to think that hypocrisy, lying and egotistic power games are things of the past, or somehow cannot be very strong among the left.

    The left endlessly preen themselves on how moral they are, and all this has infiltrated everyone's subconscious. Even hers.

    In reality, except for some low-level naive "cannon fodder," the left is overwhelmingly hypocritical, cynical, and all about power.

  11. "Personnel departments," which became "Human resources departments," are now "Diversity and inclusion departments."

    I am not kidding.

  12. She lost me at tolerance. I shouldn't be required to tolerate everything to be considered a good or better person. Acceptance is what matters. If I can't tolerate you, it's because you're not presenting yourself in an acceptable manner. Your faults are not my responsibility, if that makes sense. We only have a responsibility to improve ourselves, including making ourselves more acceptable to the societies we reside within.

    As an example, let's say I'm not religious and you are. I could accept our differences you if you practiced on your own and kept a respectful tone to my own beliefs or lack thereof. If you bombard me with pleas to join your religion however, at that point I would need to tolerate your religious assaults to continue life as normal. Tolerance requires negative pressure upon the one being tolerant, which in turn requires a negative actor. The better choice is to either improve your demeanor when talking about your religion, show restraint in social settings, or otherwise take steps to reduce your negative influences. Otherwise, societies have the full right to expel you from the ranks for impeding or harming other members. The push for tolerance is a push for not expunging bad actors or those unwilling to improve, either for laziness or for political protection.

  13. Re. tolerance is not a religious concept. It is an Enlightenment concept – Yes, I completely agree, but she cannot say that the Enlightenment, or science, for that matter, as we got it, would have come out of a different religious tradition. She ought to read Bernard Lewis on this. The Enlightenment did not arise out of a vacuum.

  14. We should not forget that the Enlightenment was a deeply religious, intellectual movement. The concept of tolerance is deeply rooted in christianity.

  15. Degeneracy posing as virtue and being ACCEPTED is the path to ruination of society. The modern world doesn't exist without christianity. Like it or not it's true
    Boy scouts shouldn't have caved

  16. "The concept of tolerance is not a religious concept — it is an enlightenment concept"?!?
    I beg to differ:
    Romans 14:1-4 [KJV]
    14 Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations.
    2 For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs.
    3 Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.
    4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.

    The "concept of tolerance" is littered throughout the Bible. You just have to get through the OT's historical narratives, and its explanations for why those events took place… Strawmanning the Bible's moral teachings based on its recounting of ancient history is as intellectually weak as the left's attempt to define America's morals based on past indiscretions.
    America allowed slavery and fought extremely bloody wars, but it would be absurd to act as though those events occurred in a vacuum…

  17. Shame that Heather Mac Donald could not come up with a more coherent and informed criticism of Christianity but instead dwelled in, metaphorically speaking, more shallow intellectual waters. If you are going to engage with such complex philosophical, not to mention the theological, folds of a structure such as Christianity, would it not be wiser to do a bit of homework first or alternately abstain?

  18. While it is easy to point out religion's excesses and downfalls, it still has a better batting average when it comes to "not resulting in mass murder".

  19. 10:10 I don't know any culture where murder is ok = Stalin/Mao/Hitler/Khan/Lenin/Pol Pot/Chicago's Current south side…….

  20. She should literally stop pretending to be a deep thinker about Christianity. Tolerance is not an idea inherent to religion? Really? I see a RADICAL tolerance practices in the life of Jesus of Nazareth. Maybe it’s not an idea inherent to all religions, but it is absolutely an idea which finds itself at the core of the Christian faith. It is in fact the core value and principle which sent Jesus Christ to the cross and enabled the birth of the Christian faith. As explained below:

    “43 "You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.'
    44 But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,
    45 so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.
    46 For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same?
    47 And if you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same?
    48 You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.”
    Matthew 5:43-48

    Christianity is, to my knowledge, the ONLY faith or religious system in history which specifically had a mandate from its founder to spread the message through acts of love and charity. And, to my knowledge, it is the ONLY religion in history that commands its followers to love their enemies and to bless those who persecute them.

  21. "I don't know of any culture where murder is OK…" and yet here in America we have abortion and capital punishment. America, like it or no, is a culture. A super culture that exists of many subcultures.

  22. I get so frustrated the atheists who don't understand the concepts of omniscience and omnipotence.

    There's as much intellectual authority in questioning God as a mosquito has when you crush it for sucking your blood (or a dragonfly has as it smashes into your windshield etc etc). Quit trying to attach your morality to a being that is so powerful it created the universe with mere thoughts. It's extremely stupid.

  23. I don't even see the point of talking about religion as it relates to politics. You may as well be debating who's stronger, the Thing or Hulk…Vampires or Werewolves. Leave your make-believe out of my life.

  24. Anytime you try to explain to leftists that "rape culture" doesn't exist in America, especially on college campuses, they always refer to an individual rape case as though single instances are sufficiently indicative of a larger societal trend…but when discussing legitimate cultural trends, like the racial breakdown in violent crime statistics, including rape, they suddenly pull a 180° and take the opposite approach to make their nonsensical argument.
    It's infuriating.

  25. One could argue that Jesus taught ppl tolerance but then the later apostles ruined that story with their writings. Buddha and Confucius taught similar ideas of live and let live as well as do unto others, ie Golden Rule, teachings.

  26. God is everything we don`t know, God is eternal and therefor the only force out side creation as he have no start and no end, everything els have.
    Btw I wonder if she know how western civilization broke the "normal condition" and what philosophy that is behind that "waiting in line concept" and respecting laws ?

  27. = Political & religious DOGMA brings the fall of this humanity !! Metaphysics is not sentimentally based ~~~ which I choose as a guidance system dynamics Conscience Compass !

  28. what a cynical woman………she claims people who believe in god are sort of stupid. she does not believe in god, then she judgmentally asks why jews don't believe in jesus…………..huh? trump doesn't have any principles he believes in…..my goodness. Really? dear lady, do you think you are that cool?

  29. I find it quite annoying that some people consider religious faith antithetical to intellectual rigor. For instance, it’s already been proven as fact, by secularist documentarians at Duke University and others, that beyond doubt, Christ was crucified, buried and rose again from the dead. This, along with countless other facts, prove to buttress a persons faith and intellect simultaneously. I don’t know how a person can be intellectually rigorous in a consistent and reliable fashion without faith towards God.

  30. The great books will not die from not being read. They will still be around for another generation to discover them, and perhaps all the more powerful for being 'discovered' (again). At least, that's what I hope when I am not in despair. Milton doesn't need us; we need Milton.

  31. "Some of the most profound insights into female sexual psychology, and competition, have been written by males."

    That got me thinking of that scene from "As Good As It Gets," where a young woman behind a reception desk in a hotel swoons over Melvin, the lead character. He's just gotten done having an uncomfortable conversation with his agent. He walks over to the lobby elevator, and hits a button. The receptionist has been behind her desk, desperate to say something. She gushes, "I can't resist. You usually move through here so quickly, I just have so many questions I want to ask you. You have no idea what your work means to me."

    He indulges her, "What does it mean to you?"

    She says tenderly, "That someone out there knows what it's like to be in here," as she touches her head and heart.

    He looks disgusted, rolls his eyes, muttering, "Oh God, this is like a nightmare," as he presses the elevator button again, as if to make it come faster.

    She prances over to him, "Oh, come on. Just a couple of questions. How hard is that?", and then she lays it on him, "How do you write women so well?"

    He looks her in the eye, and smiles. With a deadpan tone he says, "I think of a man, and I take away reason, and accountability," and then he steps into the elevator…

    Hahhh…. Couldn't be made today.

  32. The people that down voted either didn't watch the video, & are just ideologues down voting conservative speakers by default, or they are dim wits that do not like to hear truth being spoken.

  33. As a person who grew up in (Brooklyn) bushwick I can whole heartedly tell you the only reason me and my friends stop jumping the train Was because in The 2000s cops started stoping us. Before that no one did anything. My friends first ticket in his life was for jumping the train. When we got caught I didn’t get one because I was too young. That was the very last time we jumped. I’m a little shocked thats been reversed. It worked.

  34. I have no problem with atheists. Everbody can refer to whatever system of values. I still think those who declare themselves non-believers should actually express their ideas about religion and theology if they do not believe. Old Testament and New Testament is like branch and flower for Christians. When it comes to Christian faith, maybe Eastern Orthodoxy should also be taken into account – less politics, less social implication, more soul…. When it comes to socialism and communism and the left, we should also be asked – we have the experience of the utopia and we know that such ideas ALWAYS translate into tragedy, propaganda, lack of liberties, economic predicament, an aristocracy without merits, etc. etc.

  35. 9:30 "The concept of tolerance is not a religious concept" – I would refute that. Jesus was all about tolerance. He hung out with thieves and tax collectors. I think tolerance is a matter of the human condition, and overcoming one's own ignorance. That's in every human's heart. Regardless of faith.

  36. Heather dropping logic bombs. 🤘🏻There is obviously a creative power in the universe. The problem is that each religion wants to claim it as their God.
    This shows the depths of their ignorance and magical thinking.

  37. I love how this show respectfully airs opinions. I’m a liberal but agree with a lot of what she said about the lefts obsession with throwing personal responsibility under the rug. I often go from cheering to booing the speakers. Like I was not happy with what she said about the risk of having a gay boy scout leader. I don’t think there is any more risk having a gay boy scout leader that would not worry me at all.

  38. Dead wrong that no cultures think murder is ok. Most cultures accepted as a matter of course that "might made right", both within a society and between societies, for most of our history. Even more lawless or oligarchical cultures or subcultures currently are starting to return to norms where murder is celebrated and allowed more frequently to be justified (they deserved it). Gangsterism, which involves extreme violence and murder, is being celebrated extensively across our globe, whether in Africa, Mexico, or in our inner cities. Even neocon efforts to spread hegemony by the gun barrel represented a kind of gangsterism, where euphemisms like "strategic interest" cloaked pure murderous rapacity.

  39. Heather is incredibly intelligent. She went to Yale back when that actually meant something. She has high IQ and common sense. Empirical evidence truth, the anathema to liberals

  40. I love Heather, but what she expects out of prayer is the wrong thing. God expects US to act, to take the lessons and truths of scripture and to apply them to our world. The child dies because WE have failed. If the child dies, the child goes to God, who is the act of Being itself, so there is no need to worry about the child then.

  41. People like she and Ruben turn out to be useless eggheads. And I speak as a lifelong egghead. You cannot stop the power of identity politics by writing a book. They want us to bring our bowties to a gang fight. Realize that you have an identity and fight for it.Or you will lose everything.

  42. Trump has never drank, smoked or spanked his children yet small minded idiots continue to say he has no morals. Projection is what this is called.

  43. You can't fix stupid, liberals are stupid. Stupid people ignore facts and common sense. You can't change that. Like my times ignoring reality. You can't tell a pathological liar to tell the truth. Liberalsim is an incurable mental disorder

  44. But this really sounds like they're defending the notion that people who grow up in poverty are inherently less qualified — and bashing the idea of equality of opportunity. Everyone knows that affirmative action works and that there are just as many people that end up in management positions through investment that aren't qualified as business leaders and that as a result their employees suffer. Top down politics flies like a price spike in an economic bubble. Everyone is fed up with the homeless crisis, in that housing prices have skyrocketed in numerous markets where wages remain stagnant, for which responsibility falls at the feet of real estate developers looking for a quick buck and building for a market that doesn't exist in order to manufacture financial expectations, rather than by accommodating the needs of an existing market. You have to, at some point, ask yourself how much more does profit matter than, say, there being a balanced, functional society that serves itself, rather than a centralized wealthy elite.

  45. Other person's suffering is YOUR opportunity to be altruistic. Blaming God for not making all people equal in suffering is a very pessimistic view.

  46. Heather, would you please take some time and go to youtube and see what the University of Michigan's president is doing with regards to having racist people speak there while not being challenged about any of their BS! Checkout the one celebrating Dr. King whereby they even have cop-killer angela davis spewing her hate out at the race that has lifted her living standard out to the stars (while getting hate and rap music and the knockout game and violent flash mobs in exchange)! Checkout the "Tanner Lecture" whereby they brought a brown ingrate from another land to use his lying mouth like a box-cutter…! And, too,check out the insane vid where there's a brazen Mexican illegal addressing the student body on how she got a free education at UMich and that she says she intends to bring more illegals in to empower everybody against the very demographic that built the country! I love your brains, beauty and guts, Heather, and have been a big fan for a long time! May God bless and protect you — always!

  47. I couldn’t disagree with her more! Why is being a white conservative man being a man who thinks because he is white he is supreme over all?

  48. This woman has strong opinions about faith without strong research. To me she comes off as pompous and prejudiced against people of faith.

  49. Towards the start, I don’t think she’s giving an argument against the best argument for the necessity of religion for morality.

    Not about the origin story
    Not about petitionary prayer
    Not about the existence of evil

    She’s too smart to use these as the arguments to negate.

  50. Facts about “what is” don’t really change facts about what works.

    Why demand a higher level of behavior than you “think” they’re capable of?

    Because it works and raises people out of their condition.

  51. Mac Donald does not correctly identify the Aristotelian/Scholastic argument: it is not about causes that extend back in time to cosmic origins. It is about a series of potential causes that terminate by necessity in a source that is purely actual. It is not about extending back in time.

  52. Heather is right. Would you let a male scout take a Girl Scout troop on a camping trip? Of course not. It’s not because you think he is a child molester. But why the risk?

    Even if you would, you’d probably be sympathetic towards the parent who wouldn’t.

    It’s not homophobia it’s potential for sexual misbehavior. Especially with men. Men’s sexual urges are far more motivating than womens’.

    Jesus. Imagine sending a 26 year old male with a troop of 12-14 year old girls. Even the risk to HIM with the potential for misunderstandings and accusations is not worth it.

  53. Not Only Is there no barrier to entry to scramble if I remember correctly (I could be remembering this wong and confusing it with something else) it is dominated by women (both in numbers and winners though the more winners could be from the higher numbers and if broken down by percentages it may be lower) in the low to middle levels. But at the very top levels it is dominated by men. It falls in line with what we know of both sexes. Women are more often better with languages (thus have a natural advantage and interest) but men are more competitive and more focus and willing to put more time into something.

  54. But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Romans 5:8 Her argument against a personal loving God who allows suffering isn’t valid because 1. God indeed overcame the ultimate of suffering, death, through His own sacrifice, 2.her idea of suffering is relativistic; what one person considers a primitive but worthwhile life, someone else considers suffering.

  55. She’s incorrect regarding enlightenment beginning as a secular concept when, in fact, it’s beginnings can easily be traced to the reformation and it’s redefined status of the common man.

  56. I'm a total atheist and Republican as well. The whole morality without jesus/god argument pisses me off. The church used to have official "confessors" and I'm not talking about the catholic sacrament of confession reconciliation… I'm talking about a torturer essentially and an executioner. "God wills it (DEUS VULT) was essentially "ATTACK!" for centuries. More sadistic tortures and execution methods came from Judaism and christianity than any normal person would expect from the apparent sole arbiter of morality. One would expect zero, especially considering us heathens are the ones needing a good learnin' to about morals. Even many of the saints were executed by the same church that ended up granting them sainthood. Its fucking insane.

  57. Please God save U.S. from the "moral superiority" of the rich who use "philanthropy" to invade sovereign nations and "redistribute" the wealth of citizens to 3rd world populations while replacing them.

  58. As a straight, married woman, I find myself attracted to this Lady, lol. She is so gorgeous and well-spoken. I could listen to her voice for hours. If she did audio books, I would buy them.

  59. However, you can be confident, someone will be offended and someone will take exception…I mean, isn't that why humans invented religions so many years ago, to keep the slaves fighting among themselves, while their masters party on their graves?

  60. Donald Trump's road to ruin began with former Vice President Joe Biden running for office. The more Biden's poll numbers increased, the more Trump's fear increased. So he made plans to attack his perceived rival.

    Desperate for his plot to succeed, Trump said Ukraine and China should investigate Joe Biden and his son Hunter. The idea failed from the start. There's no evidence of wrongdoing by the Bidens. Also, Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky had just been elected on an anti-corruption campaign. He wanted no part of Trump's smear campaign against the Bidens. Now Trump wanted him to do something corrupt.

    To make Zelensky comply with his plans, Trump pressured him to make a statement about an investigation involving the Bidens. The money for Ukraine, already approved by Congress, was frozen. Keep in mind, Trump didn't want a real investigation, just the announcement of one. He would then attack Biden with this phony claim.

    This brings us to Trump's impeachment trial. He says he's innocent, but provides no proof. How many people say, "I did nothing wrong but no one is allowed to testify to that."

    To prove his innocence, all he had to do was provide witnesses and documents. That he fought against anything being released proves otherwise. The truly innocent don't prevent evidence from coming out.

    Republicans claim Trump did nothing wrong. Let's examine those pesky things called facts.

    1. He demanded Zelensky announce he would start an investigation about the Bidens.

    2. He froze the money approved by Congress for Ukraine.

    3. He had a foreign country try to interfere with our elections.

    None of these actions are legal.

    The first is coercion. It's the use of force to persuade someone to do something that they are unwilling to do. Trump pressuring Zelensky for a false statement is an example.

    The second, the Government Accounting Office said withholding the money was illegal. The GAO said the White House violated the law when it withheld about $400 million despite having been approved by Congress.

    The third is a violation of Federal Election laws. The law states that "it is unlawful for a foreign national to make a contribution, donation or other thing of value." A statement saying Biden was involved in corrupt activities would certainly be a thing of value to Trump's reelection bid.

    At his Senate trial, the GOP didn't defend what Trump did. Only that he shouldn't be impeached. To paraphrase Simon and Garfunkel's "The Boxer," the GOP hears what it wants to hear and disregards the rest.

    Russian leader Vladimir Putin pushed the lie about Ukraine's involvement in the 2016 election. U.S. intelligence agencies stated it was Russia, not Ukraine, who was to blame. Question? Why do Donald Trump and the Republican Party believe Russia and not America? Why do they defend Putin, a former KGB agent and not the FBI or CIA?

    Trump has never explained his peculiar affection for Moscow. Years ago, the GOP was known for two things. They despised taxes and they hated Russia. Richard Nixon and Ronald Reagan built whole careers out of being anti-communists. Now you have Republicans defending Russian lies when they say Ukraine was involved. Nixon and Reagan are spinning in their graves.

    History will harshly judge those who thought it was more important to fear Trump rather than follow the Constitution.

  61. The only way I can describe Heather's ideas is that she cannot see the wood for the trees.

    10:00 Have you ever heard of wife burning? Ever heard of a certain book that commands the killing of infidels, apostates, gays … ? Ever heard of the concept that all human beings have innate worth because they are created in the image of God (the God of the Bible, not any other god) and therefore any murder is wrong, no exceptions?

    You see, Heather? Even the moral predicaments that you consider to be universal, are not really universal. If you say "murder is wrong, but …" then murder is not really all that wrong after all, if you start to make exceptions. And the only reason why you have accepted those moral predicaments in the first place, is because you've been born and raised in a Judeo-Christian culture and have come to like and accept the values that have been traditionally taught in that culture.

    If the Enlightenment values are not inherently Christian, but rather innate to all human beings, how come there hasn't been an Enlightenment anywhere else in the world at any other time in history aside from Modern Age (i.e. post Medieval) Christian Europe?

  62. The biggest problem with you Leftist scumbags is that you don't have the balls to point out the crazy radicals in your ranks, and that's why they've taken over your party. There is a huge difference between AOC and Joe Biden, but Biden is such a pussy that he won't call her or Bernie out. Now they're the loudest voices and as such represent the Democrats.

    Case in point: About a week ago, Elizabeth Warren said she'd a let a trans kid choose her Secretary of Education. NOT A SINGLE DEMOCRAT POINTED OUT HOW INSANE THAT IS, and it was so embarrassing that no major network even mentioned it, much less questioned her about it.

    Likewise, nobody has really debated AOC on her no-ICE, no-borders lunacy. And giving hormone-blockers to little boys who think they're girls? The Left is completely fine with that, and the ones who aren't don't have the balls to speak up. You're a party of nutjobs and wimps, and not surprisingly, the nutjobs are now running things.

  63. The infinite regress of God is not a good reason against his analogous existence. Time has the exact same problem.
    I view this universe and its laws as the only possible way any conceivable existence can exist; some perfect inherit geometry that I view as analogous to God or some uniting consciousness.

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