"My Father was Raised by a Witch and Drank My Blood" Freedomain Call In

so we are here today with Natalie who has quite a tale to tell do you want to just read what you said to me yes sure so I'm running to you because I desperately need help for my son he's a 24 year old very successful he is extremely diligent with his finances and is a beautiful outgoing friend who attracts people to his charismatic personality he loves order and routine and as a child he did excellent in school I only have had two issues with him growing up one was been suspended for assaulting a kid that attacked him and I one not the other was he was caught shoplifting my reaction was when that happened I took him to the police station made him apologize made him write an essay on what he had done and even arranged a tour for him to the police station so that he could see his faith if his behavior did not change I didn't put this in the letter but he never did that again so a bit of background his dad and I met when I was 14 and he was 17 he was my first boyfriend and we were married when I was 20 we had both come from very destructive backgrounds both our mothers were very promiscuous and I'm being kind his mother would sleep with different men literally every night that is not an exaggeration and even slept with his best friend my mother was constantly having affairs we both had absent fathers mine completely abandoned me his dad was a part-time father there was also severe sexual abuse domestic violence and generally a very shitty childhood for both of us when I met his dad he was taking drugs such as part acid quaaludes and alcohol I was abusing alcohol and marijuana too however as our relationship progressed I eventually stopped doing all of that he stopped with all the other drugs with the exception of marijuana we married it was born prematurely at 28 weeks he was a little far turned after and in six hours after his birth he was breathing on his own and has had no effects from birth the minute I saw I fell madly in love with him and honestly my love for his dad started dying I knew this relationship was doomed however as I was an only child I really didn't want to be the only child and two and a half years later his sister was born I had suppressed the sexual abuse but by the time my second child was born I had gone into a severe depression and found out later that I was overwhelmed in protecting my children from suffering the same abuse I had a marriage did lead to client he's dead and with his dad his dad had assaulted me a couple of times and eventually we divorced when I was 25 after the divorce I slipped into a nihilistic human being started abusing drugs and eventually after year was addicted to heroin I abandoned my children with their father I had several suicide attempts one way I would have died if I had not been found in time all this happened around the children their father also started taking hardcore drugs such as cocaine and ecstasy however he still took care of the kids eventually close to death I ended up in an extremely good rehab had extensive counseling for eight weeks and finally admitted the sexual abuse I had suffered as a child I moved towns got myself a great job stopped taking all the drugs and within a year I had gotten my children back I know used if I'm have negative thoughts about single mums but I believe and I'm 100% certain that the children will say that those two the two years of just the three of us building our relationship begin spending time together and healing the damage I caused was probably the best experience we all had I met my current husband three years later and we were married a year after that he not a bad stepdad my stepfather he provided very well for the children and even though they had their spats I think the children will agree he was not the evil stepdad he has never had children of his own and today refers to the kids as his own we will be relocated from South Africa and when this happened my extreme mental illness started again I was abusing medications neglecting my children and really did destructive things to both my husband and my children again I had many suicide attempts and revert sit back two months of destructive place again eventually I got myself sorted and I would say that for the rest of their childhood and even as Gina teenagers we had a very stable loving home the children are extremely smart well-mannered every friends parents that ever had dealings with my children would compliment me on how well-mannered they were I had a fear that my children would rebel as ardent as teenagers but honestly it was a wonderful experience I have apologized to my children and I seek any way in which I can fix what I've done if you decide to speak to my son and tell him it's better to not associate with your mother it would break me in pieces but his well-being is the most important thing and as long as I can get him healed I will do anything sorry for the rambling but I felt it was important to be honest and give you a detailed background it's been in a serious relationship with a girl for eight years they met in high school and eventually moved in together five years ago a week ago believed he called her cheating on snapchats he questioned her about it and eventually beta that both her eyes were bruised and Olympus split right up to her nose this is not the first time he's assaulted her has assaulted her he's done it many times and he left bruises on her body he and her he has a massive rage problem he goes from zero to 500 in a second he loses complete control there's no reasoning with him when he's in that rage he becomes violent he becomes a he's vicious with his mouth the girlfriend eventually packed all her stuff about two weeks ago while I was at work and left him takes full responsibility for his actions he started therapy and he realizes that he needs help desperately to figure out why he behaves in this manner there was never any domestic abuse with my current husband and his dad although he did assault me I believe only witnessed at once when he was about a year old and never again the therapy sessions only happened fortnightly and I've suggested that he start going to jump to get rid of the excess in rage and energy also has a very depressing attitude after he has blown up with some with severe rage he does not feel good at all about his actions but feels as though he can't control them I believe he needs to find the root cause of this and if it's me or my ex-husband I believe we will both be willing to do whatever it takes take all responsibility and try to fix the damage we did to her beautiful boy please help me Stefan please my dream for my child is he founds the root cause of his rage he meets a beautiful woman and becomes a great father that is his dream too as previously stated he must have loved his extremely successful but this rage could end him up in prison or eventually killing someone I know that sounds dramatic but it could happen and then I just said explaining to speak to you I'm willing to speak to you and I believe he was dad would be willing to speak to you so we can help our boy become a great person sorry no no listen I mean then you you care passionately about your son in the future and you fear jail you fear the effects of his rage which you are wise to do so I mean when people are in that kind of rage even if they don't mean to someone significantly people can trip and fall they can land on a glass table they can go down some stairs even if you just mean to push that like the moment you unleash that demon of violence you never know where it's going to take you and so I I get your fear and I respect it and I I agree with it and I just wanted to before we get in just for those who say like you said well if you tell my son to not see me I don't do that I mean I've never let me just finish let me just finish because it's something like this is sort of a myth about what I don't tell people what to do there's no point people substituting my judgement for their own thinking so I will give perspectives I will give arguments I will give ways of looking at things but I'm not gonna tell people what to do so I just wanted to correct that because that was in the email and just fine I'm not upset or anything I just wanted to point that out because it's an emotional time you're in in a difficult place and I just wanted to gently correct that for the record if that's the right well I mean if the feeling from me is the best thing for him it would break me but I I would accept it we'd rather you'd rather him not end up in prison or or whatever could happen out of this even if he doesn't end up in prison he's not going to get a quality relationship if he's a violent guy I mean he's going to be going through a series of increasingly worse and worse women and and the other thing too is that if he's with a woman who will stay with him when he's violent she may very well become violent to him in turn and you know women can inflict a significant amount of damage because they'll use implements rather than fists usually and and so he's not at risk just of committing violence but also being on the receiving end which would be terrible for everyone involved right absolutely and and just saying that reminds me of my mother and stepfather because my mother was a worse fighter with their hands then most men it was it was shocking the way she was I understand they're completely alright so I assume we can be blunt with each other and and if I ask anything that you don't want to answer you're perfectly free to to say no but I think the first question that I want to ask and this is particularly related to when you were saying Natalie that you fell out of love with your husband as you fell in love with your son what was the nature of the abuse particularly the sexual abuse that you yourself suffered as a child okay so it's it's going to say when I was a very little girl my my mother fell pregnant at 16 with me and she had me and and Mike apparently the story is my grandfather made her marry my father and she married him and my father was I mean just a real you know back in the 70s drugs and free love and car Nagar and that lasted for about six months and after the end they got divorced when I was six months old and you know what was it the same violence and and are you mentioned drug abuse and so on do you want there was violence involved in the marriage well no and he was on drugs well this is what she's I've got most of my histories from my mother but I've got a bit of confirmation from him he was on drugs and but also he was literally a male horse so he would just sleep around with everybody they lived in an apartment like and he was sleeping with the cords my mother every other woman that was in the building and what whatever that that was the story so she he used to work in a little Hospital which was like a a little readin we I lived in Johannesburg which is a big city but in the suburbs they'd have little back in the day little many hospitals that would take care of you know small issues so that you didn't have to go to the big General Hospital there's sort of like a walk-in clinic right yeah but it was it was a proper hospital but so he worked then he worked not duty and my mother for some other reason used to leave me there and him and a nurse I can't remember the exact details because I think I've suppressed it very very much but I do remember them having me when I was a little girl always around my birthday she always used to take me to him on my birthday I was naked laying on one of those Gurney's and they were doing whatever they were doing these two and I just remember this lady wanting to cut me and to take my blood and my father stopped her and said to her do not cut her there cut it on the inside of her mouth and they this lady actually cut the inside of my mouth and they drank my blood so I know it sounds insane but that was the one I don't know what else happened that not but that was it and afterwards they took me down to the mortuary and they said if I ever tell anybody this is where my mother will be but they literally took me there and I was about four or five at the time the other occasion with him was at this hospital they had a a section where the hospital staff stayed so tucked single quarters there's a swimming pool there and that and one day during the week we were at the swimming pool him me and this lady and him and the lady molested me they they did their sexual things with me together so I had suppressed that completely and I was terrified of everything when I was a little kid but I didn't realize why with the abuse that I did remember and it was sexual abuse with penetration I was seven years old and my mother had remarried to my stepdad and his son was about sixteen seventeen at the time and he groomed me and he made me feel loved because my parents were just disengaged completely and after school in the afternoons we would go into his room and he would do what he needed to do and to this day I can see that the curtains that were there and I can see the bed and I can I can even smell what the room smelled like so those were the and that happened for about two years of my life and how old would you witnessed a brother a seven I was he great – so verse seven and that was the termination of this activity so what had happened was is the stepbrother had then gotten a girl down the road who was 13 pregnant and he then they got married she married him at 14 and they and they had their child and they moved out and then the sexual abuse stopped right and how much older was the stepmother he was seven he was about ten years older than I am here so I mean the molestation didn't stop it just switched to his child bride right yeah well I didn't even think about it until I was an adult so no suck did no one think that that that she was 13 you know a monk it was just a normal thing nobody even thought about it if I was thought about it a few years ago I know suck did no one think that that's a bit odd that he's made this child pregnant but apparently they didn't because there's never an issue or it wasn't even a gossip it was just like oh it was more like she was bloody stupid for falling pregnant you know that was the attitude of everybody not that he was probably a bit of a predator you know right and what happened to your relationship with your dad Natalie over time so from about five years old I refused to go to him I refused to go I didn't say why and and I'm honest with you Stefan I don't remember the full details of what happened but I as a child I had this horrible fear of him without knowing like why did you remember at the time the molestation and the cutting and the blood-drinking did you remember that a long time or that they come back later after your son was okay that came back after that came up back but I had a horrible fear of him that he scared me so so what what I was told was I had disassociated from those activities because they were so horrible as a kid but so I didn't remember the details of what had happened but I knew that being around him terrified me and and I was a bit of a sassy kid and a mouthy kid and from five years old I was determined to never ever go there and that the cruelest thing of all is my mother who never asked why she never inquired she didn't really care but what she used to do to me if I must behave or made her angry she would threaten me and say to me she would send me to him she will just send me to him and she knew it scared me so intensely then I would be paralyzed with fear and just behave because I was so scared of ever going to him ever I remember when I was it was my 10th birthday so from five I just refused to see him anymore and he didn't contact us or anything and when it was my 10th birthday her and I were in the Woolworths being out you know buying our stuff on my party which was the next day my birthday party and we just happened to bump into him and his wife and they had a couple of little kids two or three years old and I was just like Hello hiding behind my mother no you know not knowing why but not really wanting to associate with him and my mother invited them to my birthday party the next day and I didn't say anything but that night she was busy making little things that she do for the the birthday party and I remember going into the kitchen and I was laying on the floor I now realize I was having a panic attack but when that happened I didn't know what was going on with me and I was laying on the floor and I was screaming at her that I can't breathe and I thought there's something wrong with me there's something wrong with me I was begging her to help me and I said I can't breathe I can't breathe this I mean wrong with me and she just said get off the bloody floor there's nothing wrong with you but years later when I had a panic attack and it was said that that was it I had one at 10:00 and it was a direct result of the fear of him coming to this birthday party the next day so I was terrified of him yeah have you just out of curiosity have you ever looked up your father and found out how his life arc turned out if he's at all on the internet or social media so I have not really what had happened was and when I had gone into rehab after I'd gone totally destructive because a little bit before that on my 16th birthday we were away on holiday it was mum like a couple of people and my ex-husband was there my best friend was there her boyfriend was there and it was a big for her family was there it was a big thing and my mother got drunk this one night and in front of everybody she turn and she told him that he raped her and that's why I was born I've never heard that before I was 16 so and with you there almost everybody was they everybody was well why am I going to be shocked that a woman who married a child blood drinker is going to say something wildly inappropriate alright so and I was I was confused so that that was one of the most traumatizing things in my life why because it was the first of all it was embarrassing but it was also horrible to think that that that's why I was around well that's why I was yeah and after I had being in this rehab which was an excellent facility and I had the best therapy and the best treatment um it was amazing um I needed to find out some closure especially because that's when all that those memories that torn out but I didn't want to contact him and just go listen I think your people were into some ritual abuse or some I didn't want to be go that far so I rang him and I said to him my mother said you raped her is that true and his answer was pretty shocked he hadn't spoken to me in 20 years and he said to me well it's not rape if you were meant to be born and that's all he said and when he said that I just was like okay then and I put the phone I just said okay goodbye it seems like an odd kind a confession to me it was bizarre like it wasn't like all your mother's insane or that never happened or it was just so it's not rape if you were meant to be born Wow Wow and you're so you have no particular relationship with your father right none at all a couple of years ago he added me on Facebook which I just declined and now because of her two reasons I offer Facebook completely but you've never looked up his life art right and with regards to your mother and my mother's passed away what what would you like to know about her well you maintained a relationship with her is that right well yes so when I was a little kid I really really loved my mother my mother was the only thing I had as as I didn't have brothers or sisters I had him my stepdad and even though my stepdad was the most dysfunctional human being and his son is the one that actually raped me at seven my stepdad was the only human being in my life that I can say anything good about you know my mother she other men he raised the boy who raped you right yeah yes it was important and and he was her wasn't there to protect you yeah there's many many other things about him that were bad but he how can I put it he took an interest in me as a human being whereas my mother my mother was an extremely materialistic image-conscious woman everything about my mother was how she loved what she wore my stepdad was 23 years older than her he was very very wealthy and she got whatever she wants it and I got whatever I wanted but I never got any love not one day did I ever believe when she told me she left me that it was true even as a child well that's it it's a common pattern I'm sure you're aware of it often though not always the more ghastly the inside the more pristine the outside in other words more horrible people are on the inside they're more more they want to present this this perfect image on the outside it's a form of the honey trap so to speak well that's exactly right we had the best house I had the best bedroom of any child you could see um everything was the best but it was so ugly if he'd just scratched the surface it was so horrible yeah she's spending more time creating an Envy inducing external appearance and not any time protecting her daughter from being raped at the age of seven that's correct I think Jack I'm so sorry about all of this it's it's uh it's an incredibly heartbreaking tale and an enraging tale but we'll get to that and it's maybe what's going on with your son but I just what a terrible series of experiences I mean I that's probably about the worst I've been doing this for a long time as you know Natalie and this is pretty much about the worst and I just want to extend a huge cosmic hug and and sympathy and hora and and anger and loss and sympathy for everything that this truly bottom layer of hell landscape inflicted upon you thank you thank you so I just can I just take you on a slight it sounds like a bit of a sidebar but it's I think it's kind of important and it's really shocking to me how famous people can be and how little moral outrage there is when there's significant evidence of them doing terrible things to children right I'm gonna put a link to this below and I won't read the whole article but but this popped into my mind and I it's important out so to tell you why right so this is from the phoenix new times eleven rock stars who allegedly slept with underage girls and I won't get into all of the gruesome details I think I mean it's worth reading because these are people who are in general highly venerated in the court of public opinion right so I mean there's there's this David Bowie Jimmy Page of course from the guitarist for Led Zeppelin you know this is what he did it's appalling and here you have Barack Obama and Michelle Obama sitting next to the guy singing along to a wonderful festival of Led Zeppelin music they got no problem with this guy they think it's great are Kelly yeah of course a Ted Nugent you know wrote wrote a song called jailbait where he said well I don't care if you just thirteen you look too good to be true I just know that you're probably clean and and here's the lyrics this guy Ted Nugent he's like oh yeah he's Pro trumpet he says right so that the lyrics are it's quite all right I asked your mama wait a minute officer don't put those handcuffs on me put them on her and I'll share her with you a thirteen year old girl a Steven Tyler Steven Tyler the guys in is his 20s and this woman just turned 16 she meets him and her mother so she'd had this terrible life of course her father abandoned her mother early on her younger brother died in the car accident when she was 13 so this is a you know I mean a woman who's had massive massive issues and she meets Steven Tyler and her mother grant Steven Tyler guardianship over her the reason being so he could grant her on tour with him over state lines and of course everyone knows Jerry Lee Lewis and Marvin Gaye and Bill Wyman this is the right in the mid-80s Wyman began a sexual relationship with a teenage girl she was 13 and he was in his 30s it became sexual when she was 14 14 now no one sits there and says what God Almighty we can't have anything to do with the Rolling Stones right I mean it's Elvis Presley again old thing Iggy Pop not not particularly shocking of course Mick Mick Jagger Laurie Maddox relates a story about having BDSM flavored sex with Jagger when she was 17 and and the so and I mean we can go on and on right I mean the cover-up of the rapes of little white girls in England by the police as Jimmy Savile and I mean just this this you know I mean just look at Steven Tyler right Steven Tyler showed up in a kids movie I think it was epic or something he played the giant caterpillar and sang a Sunkist guys in children's movie they got no problem with the guy ah great we get Steven Tyler to come in and play this caterpillar and sing a song he's a judge on some singing show nobody has any problem with the guy I mean according to these reports he took guardianship of a girl so that he could take her across state lines on tour nobody has any any problem with that Steve Tyler goes on Joe Rogan now Joe Rogan of course had a good old go at me a couple years ago because why cuz I say people shouldn't have to stay in abusive relationships right but Tyler sits across from Joe Rogan after Steve Tyler did what Steve Tyler did Joe Rogan isn't sitting there saying I don't think that was a very good thing to do to get guardianship of a girl from her parents so you could take her across straight with the pleat lines you know problem with that then even what was his name that fled to France he did this Roman Polanski yeah he raped her Jack Nicholson's house at 13 year old girl I remember her age but yeah that's uh that seems pretty pretty well-established do you know Stefan mentioning all of this and and they else one thing my father was in a band and he was a musician just love the way obviously but the worst thing about being sexually abused I found two for myself with my home life was so terrible and the only person that showed me love and interest and attention was this 17 year old pedophile so even though I was seven and even though it hurt me when it was happening the the guilt and the filth you feel about yourself as an adult because you crave that love because you didn't get it from anyone else that destroys that destroyed me more than the actual events if that makes sense that that I craved it because I wasn't getting anything from anybody well I I mean but but but Natalie how can you I hope that you don't blame yourself for that I'll think worse of yourself for that I mean a starving man will eat food off the floor that doesn't mean he's a pig it means he's starving yeah I know I know I'm good now happy three years a Faraday yes yes I want to leave any of that sitting out for the audience right no I think but I'm saying when I before when I started the trip because I went funny story my mother came to me one day and she was screaming at me and she said why why heroin of all the drugs why did she go into heroin and I said – because it makes me not feel and she looked at me and she because she was very much about image and what everyone thought about her and you know it wasn't about what I was going through and she said to me what do you mean you don't want to feel and I said it makes me feel nothing and she looked and she said that insane everybody has to feel but but that's how it made me that's how much pain I was in that the heroin was the one drug that made me feel nothing and I would rather have felt nothing than what I the fourth I had fell about myself because I did blame myself when I was younger and I don't think helps to play no you you have to I mean this is a very common pattern and it is virtually universal for everybody who survives those childhoods the way that you survive is you take ownership you take ownership because what's the alternative the alternative is you run away or you kill people and if you run away you can end up in an even worse situation and if you kill people well that's not good although I can I can understand it it's still not good and so so how do you survive you know you know as well as I do the way that you survive these situations is because no one else is taking any ownership for the wrongs being done so you have to take ownership yourself it's a way of paralyzing your natural desire for rent for a fighter flight right because you're trapped what do we normally do when we're preyed upon as mammals right why don't we normally do where we're walking through the woods and we think we see a bear well we get an adrenaline dump we get cortisol we get our fight-or-flight mechanism going and it's supposed to last five minutes either we get away or we're dead right that's that's how fight-or-flight but when you're trapped with predators in the house what do you do well you end up with the slow-burn fight-or-flight that goes on for years you can't fly because you're a kid and you can't fight because you're a kid because they'll overpower you and then you can say oh well you know I'll stab them in their sleep or whatever but then you've got a whole other world of hell and then you've got that to live with and and just all kinds of messy and and so on so what do you do well you say it's I have no control over my environment everything's happening to me that's horrible and I can't do anything about it so the only control that I can have is to believe that I am the cause or I am in control and and that allows you to survive without the fight-or-flight possibly putting you in a worse situation but it gives you a pretty heavy burden to carry until you shrug it off right and yes and then when the the adults that are in charge who because obviously I never told anybody about this as a kid and the the response to be I was pretty good kid and I turned 14 I was I was just a good kid you know just generally when I turned 14 our obviously rebel to to the worst human being and then the way you hang on hang on a sec there yes sounds like we may have dropped a little judgment bomb in there Natalie what did you just say so are you saying that you went from being a good kid to being the worst human being uh and that was what my mother told me my mother okay I don't want to talk to your mother Natalie I consider her satanic so I don't want to talk to her I want to talk to you now struck you mean did you do some bad things as a teenager yes you did so did I so did I but in the struggle to survive you've got to put these things in context did you rape children Natalie no right did you did you burn down houses with all that old people no right did I mean I got involved at some shoplifting I drank a little bit too much for a couple of weekends and I kissed another girl when I was dating one girl which you know I mean it's but but in in the context of the wrongs that were swirling around us and the lack of moral instruction in our society man as you talk about the 70s right so we're a little bit older Natalie and I so we remember the 70s as a hellscape of disintegrating social norms and the translation of a higher civilization into a very ornate technological and well adorned pack of fucking Apes rutting and beating and shitting and eating and grabbing and molesting and just a bunch of apes we were a bunch of apes in a Cathedral of civilization we had an entire collapse from the 60s onwards of any kind of rational moral standards any kind of general social judgment any kind of ostracism of wrongdoers and it just became this Nietzschean will to power satisfy your lest at any expense whatsoever and because of the welfare state there was no capacity for social ostracism of wrongdoers anymore and it just became this low deviant devolution to a bunch of highly sophisticated prowling mammals with all the ethical standards of single-celled organisms and yet to break down to the family so you had children exposed to a wide variety of predators right I mean as I've said before one of the reasons why some not all not maybe many but something one is one of the reasons why some men want to be around single moms is access to children not many but some and and I've talked about this before that single moms need to be have eternal vigilance because there's not a dad around to pretend a biological dad or whatever to protect the children rights this is why children to single mothers are 30 times plus more likely to be abused by the succession of boyfriend's roaming through the apartment right I mean given the prevalence of pedophilia you don't need to date that many guys as a single mom to have one in the house as you well know right I mean with the son right I mean who knows what happened to that 17 year old boy and again I know we can do this Domino forgiveness if I was having a call with him I'd find out about his child didn't feel some sympathy for that and I get I get all of that I mean it's a complex thing between sympathy and justice I just did a call with the guy who was abusing his daughter I get that that's a hell of a tightrope to walk and I understand all of that but there was a genuine black hole nihilistic hellscape that was occurring in the 70s and it really I mean again it's hard to know beforehand because it wasn't really talked about but the uncorking in particular of revelations of crimes against children sexual crimes against children which had occurred before under the tutelage of Sigmund Freud you touched upon it and then backed away from the top against that it's all fantasy as it talked about in I think it was well yeah I talked about that in Washington at a knife of freedom last year so the crimes against children it is really astonishing it is really astonishing just how prevalent they were and there are a lot of people who wish to commit these crimes against Jill who are welcoming cultures when that becomes normalized that is normalized and there's that's one of the reasons why it's one of they just want to – I mean you can see this happening on the left all the time they really want to relax these standards against the sexual exploitation of children and drops me insane it really does it really is the pain that those children feel as adults is is unbearable the pain is is it gets to the point that it's so bad that you would rather die then wake up and feel that pain again that is a horrible that abuse of a child is it is just it is just the most excruciating pain a human being can go through and there is of course a tipping point because when you're young you feel that this pain will pass and then there comes a time where there is a concern for a lot of people that the pain is not going to diminish over time but may in fact get worse and and it also and the contrast I remember this I have talked about that before and I pleased I'm not trying to equate this in terms of pain but I remember in my family particularly around Christmas when Christmas you're supposed to have this great time you got the TV on there all these happily families on TV if you're having a miserable screaming throwing violent kind of Christmas it's all the more painful because you have this expectation of something better and then when you get the inevitable shit sandwich your family dysfunction when you're expecting some wonderful meal that's some of the worst stuff and I think what you were talking about when your son was born and you felt this wonderful bond I was when I first read this I was like okay well I had it why did Natalie begin to fall out of love with her husband when she fall in love with her son and that's because you recognized that you weren't in love with your husband it wasn't like you fell out of love with your husband it's like look at the bond you have with your son that's not the point you have with your husband and so it begins to the happiest times become the worst time oh I've become a mother and then of course it reactivates a lot of this this pain this this trauma and so you can't even really enjoy being a mother that much because you're wrestling with this this demonology I guess maybe even literally in your case with the blood-drinking with this demonology of history which arises and pounces upon a crib that should be overflowing with with love and contentment and and bonding yeah and I think what when I was born it was it was it was a love that I've never I never felt before I never and it was beautiful and although my ex-husband was not a great man oh but I wasn't a great person either so much is gonna paint him as bad because he just says as much time as I did and it's just everything and I was privileged enough to stay at home with him so I was a stay at home mum and it was easy to just protect him from everybody it was easy for me but by the time my daughter had come round it was now two children was at the toddler 2 yard where he was busy and my daughter was just a hard baby was a good baby but she was a crier and she'd only want to be in my arms and and I eventually without knowing it I was I couldn't protect both of them do I do you know what I mean I I didn't know what I was trying to protect them from but I couldn't protect both of them like I didn't I wasn't powerful enough to make sure that both of them were safe but I didn't know what I was protecting them from if that makes sense it's it's it's like something's going to happen to them and it was one individual but now it was two individuals and and he was venturing out and she was crying and it was like something's going to happen to them and I act like something's gonna happen to them and I can't take care of both of them it was a very very hard after she was born I had severe depression severe depression after she was born well of course the fact that it's a daughter and you were a daughter and the fact that she was a little baby or a little girl and you were a little baby a little girl when terrible things happened means it's probably going to activate more memories right yeah exactly exactly right right but I will say this Natalie when you think about it which I know you have of course but when you think about it whatever you did as a child to maintain your capacity to bond with your own children was a truly remarkable feat I mean talk about like a running race holding an egg that's on fire while being attacked by cormorants that is an incredible feat to have maintained your capacity to bond with a child after everything you went through as a child with people who hadn't bonded with you many of you you can you can mistreat someone you love this is why you know when people say well he abused me but he loved me it's like no no he didn't I mean he did abuse you but he didn't love you you cannot hurt someone you love now that doesn't mean that you can't tell tough truths to someone that you love but in terms of abusing some if you abuse someone you just not in love you've you've not bonded the bond is there to stop you from doing that right and all I knew this is this is all I did with my children because I thought whatever my mother did I was going to be the exact opposite that that was my theory whatever she did I was going to do the exact opposite you know I had no rules I didn't have a bedtime I I mean Fridays were the worst because we know they have please come into our house and with one of the ambassador gun shots shooting at each other it was a wait on Fridays I made this I apologize sorry so the the domestic violence I mean that the sexual abuse happened it went over with your parents you mean my pants re sorry I we skip generations there for a second there just that's fine that's fine I just I'm just trying to keep up so I got no problem keep doing what you're doing there's nothing wrong with what you're doing I just want to make sure that I don't skip over something and this was my stepdad and my mother they I mean she was a fighter if I have never lifted my hands to another human being and she was aggressive like forth like a man and my dad would fuck they would fight each other like two men and it would be he on a Friday night was the worst not because you that was when he'd get drunk Sheena if I ever drank any alcohol but he was an alcoholic so Friday night he'd come home he'd get drunk they'd start fighting and by 10 o'clock that night we are they had the police at the house or the ambulance at the house or my mother had taken me and we were walking in the streets or my dad had put me in the kind he was drunk and he was driving around like an every weekend was just a warzone just and it was embarrassing because in the suburb I loved all the kids went to the same school and I'd known these children for long and weekends came and all the neighbors would see the police were at our door the ambulance was at our door or the screen screaming and shouting and breaking and smashing that was my that was every single week of my life in my childhood which is funny because you were saying not funny of course but tragic because you were talking inaptly about how concerned with the appearance your mum was all right appearance is very much the appearance is what she wore what her house looked like what she was so insane about her impure appearance if she didn't get what she wants it she would cause a fact with him and then she would go and take the scissors and my mother had clothes and shoes and handbags which were revoltingly massive it was it was just insane how much but she would go and shoot her cats through everything like just cut it and shred it all with it and then the next morning after her and my dad got in a fight and he beat her Apple she beat him up and they were all sorry in the morning he would then take her out and buy her a whole new wardrobe first stuff where did he get his money from I mean this amount of dysfunction this amount of drinking this violence this this cop presence I mean it's hard to imagine they're making a lot of money with that Ematic yes well he was when they met so my mother was a very attractive woman yeah I know I'm gonna get that if she bagged a rich guy then that's usually the way it works right she after she had me she was if you remember back in the day in the seven seas the ladies that used to model with the lawn mowers had been so she was one of those models that's what she did and it's funny because sorry to interrupt but that's probably would be you know the these catalogs would get mailed to people's houses right and that'd be guys you know they'd open these catalogs they'd look at your mom modeling with with something right and they'd be like wow she's so pretty boy it'd be great if she was my wife can you imagine how great my life would be if I had a woman that pretty and that slender and and that poised and that well put together as my wife and and these guys were like I'm gonna say just lusting after her in a sexual manner but as a status manner and I like wouldn't that be great so what happens people they open up these magazine look at these models right and say wow these people are perfect and yet of course if you lift the lid or you peel back this modeling thing I mean she's having fistfights and drunken captain up a bags with though not that she was drunk but the stepdad was drunken police and and nightmares and blood ease and bruisings and unable to practice getting ray by her her husband son and and like you peel back the layers rise like the beginning of the movie blue velvet you start with this lawn this guy mowing a lawn and the suburban household museam into all of the insects battling at the base of the grass and it's just a weird thing when you lift the matrix or the Platonic ideal of how people look and you flip the page to what's actually going on in their life and a complete nightmare that's right and he was like a senior manager and that's how he met her because she was doing a photo shoot at the place where they were selling their lawn mowers or whatever oh so he was a successful businessman and and she was a hot 17 yelled because she was 17 and he was 40 when they got together Wow Wow now did you inherit your mother's looks I'd say my mother and my daughter I would give them probably a 10 where I would rather be in a paint so I was not as pretty as my mother not I wasn't an attractor that was bad my daughter is as beautiful as my mother was her name is very not my son I'd give him he looks a lot like his dad which I would say is a 7 right okay which is also a big issue for him because his sister is as I said beautiful she is she's that's that the hardest thing these kids would been together forever she has never had a issue in her life she's in university she's doing well she works hard she is soft-spoken she's she's had one boyfriend that she's I mean she's 22 now they never argue she's just she's healthy she's always in the gym she's just so well put together and very resentful of the fact that he's sister is very opposite to him well she wasn't favored go baby right she was a horrible life come on there's no such thing of the horrible baby – shall we say – if you were mothers or not never have another when she was a beautiful baby but God she did not shut up she and she would only sleep in my arms you could hold it for 3-4 hours in your arms and try and let her down and she was up again she was just until she turned to and from – she's just been calm and quiet she would play for hours by herself she's she's just come she's the complete opposite of and here's a lot of resentment towards her because she's that way hmm and you know sir I've got that issue going on as well that you got this but the looks because can i or I've got a paler skin where he's got a darker skin you know she's blonde but she's got darker skin and she gets an asked hen and we unfortunately have got way too much Irish in us so we are buried kind of thing in the Sun and just silly things like then he's resentful about her and she's also made a lot of right decisions in her life where he has made I'm gonna go my own way so he suffered a lot by doing his own thing do you know where she's stayed at home went to school doesn't and it's just completely different well and I was sort of the first place I go to is you know there can be significant IQ differences between siblings but given how smart your son is and how well he does in his profession I mean he's not I mean she's not I mean maybe you tell me I mean good that can't be there's an average of 8 IQ point differences between siblings and that could be one like he may may just see a little further down the road and and modify her behavior accordingly well I can tell you the thing is well that the is the most diligent human being I have ever made that this child will if he starts something he will work at it until he is 100 percent perfect at it his sister is in no way like that never took a day off of the school he would always be doing his homework he would always be up until two three o'clock in the morning making things and he did very well on the other hand would take off of school so often I remember when she was in grade 9 she came home and she said Oh mom I've been awarded ducks for Dax's I heard you know the best in the the grade for a subject so she's like I wonder what it's for so I said to us all jokes and I said probably for absenteeism it was because she was never at school and they never contacted me because she just she just did well okay so let's go back she doesn't have to work for it where he has to work for it does that make sense well yeah Easy's he's diligent she's not your diligent and it comes across like things just fall in her lap right now let's go back a little bit to when they were babies and you said that you wanted to do the opposite of what your mother did so there were no rules when I was a kid there was no rules when you were a kid there was no rules so you wanted to give some structure to your kids is that right that's right so I wanted them to eat at a certain time I wanted them to bath at the certain time they would have bedtime at the same time they would be everything would be organized before they went to bed so in the morning their little lives were organized you know school stuff was ready lunches were packed so because with me it was just go to bed when you want wake up you don't know where anything is give you some money and go get food at school so I mean nobody cared where I was if I were boys in the streets they didn't ask where I was I was way more different and if my kids were going somewhere I would want to go and meet the parents sit with them discuss them see where my children are where I would just be dropped off and do your own things so that's what I meant in that way right do you think that your father was involved in the occult or worship of Satan or or dark forces because this torture of children and the blood-drinking I mean that that goes beyond goes so far beyond normal realms of child abuse that it's hard not to think that there would be sinister forces involved in that somehow well when I spoke to my mother about it because when I told her about that she didn't seem surprised but when I told her about my step-brother she got angry at me and she said she's gonna go tell my dad who's my stepdad but I referred to him as my dad then I'm accusing him his son of doing this to me she got mad about that but with my real father when I told her what had happened she said her expression was yes that his mother was a witch and I was like what my dad's mother and I'm like what are you talking about and she goes oh no she's a witch we used to go there and play glassy glass here and if you know what that is they would I'm glass I'm afraid I'm going to know what it is in just a moment so it's like it's like a Ouija board but they don't have the board so they just do and then they conjure up spirits and that sort of thing and she so that his mother was a very high in occultism and that sort of thing and the interesting thing about it was when he raped my mother she was 15 and she my hurt my granny was very very sick at that time and because my granny passed away when she was 21 years old and instead of her being out and doing what all the other kids did she would come home every day and be with my grand so she was known as the the town virgin we all the other girls weren't and and she said she was a virgin when he because what I'd have and while she was walking home from school and his mother came to the the gate and she said she said to him oh you need to come inside he Oh Lauren says Oh Lana let's he's no man but okay Lana was very very ill in bed and my mother was like oh no I'm coming thought I need to go home to my mother and she said no no no just come inside come inside so my mum said she went into the house and she said just go take him the soup because he's really sick she went into the room and his mother locked the door and that he had the music blaring rat loud and that's when he raped her so it sounds almost like some ritual of some sort of devil worshipping cult that you have to rape the Virgin and that's how you gain ascendancy or imaginary powers or some sort of you know it's like in a gang you're to kill someone and and in this cult or or whatever they were doing that did you got a rape a virgin maybe that's I mean the equation well well I didn't want to say that but that's what I thought because we're not spoken to him after I've gotten out of rehab and I said well my mother said this about you is that true when his response was here but you were suppose to be born our that's when it was like okay I think these people planned it because they thought she was a virgin and they wanted a virgin a child born from a virgin sort of mocking the the Jesus Christ route do you know what I mean yeah I mean this is this is the traditional story about how the Antichrist is born right is a woman is impregnated in some satanic ritual and she is often a virgin or usually a virgin and then the child that is born then becomes demonic in some manner right that shot but that is what I think the whole aim was and and and like I said my mother was like are you well that she's to speak to the spirits she was a medium and she told me that my brother did that my mother's dead brothers was there and he spoke to my mother that bizarre stuff I don't even know they could do stuff like that but that's that's what they were she told me their way into Wow that is I mean that's truly monstrous and I mean I've been thinking a lot about these dark forces in the world Mike Serna vich was talking about how he believes in dark forces and you know looking at some Billy Eilish lyrics it's a little hard to avoid that this is powerful stuff in the world and I've probably never come closer to an emotional acceptance of the idea of God as looking at these dark forces in the world whether their psychological which is you know I'm sure they are but it's it's hard to avoid that sense of a specter over humanity that is manipulating and moving people in in horrible directions for the sake of larger demonic ends I mean just given everything that's happening in the world these days I'm just putting it that out there it's not a philosophical argument I just sort of wanted to point out where I am emotionally and and maybe this has had you've obviously had a lot of time to think about this stuff Natalie and you know there's this and there's some pretty dark forces going on here well I can tell you that I am a Christian I mean not a great one but I am a Christian and I believe I am where I am today because no matter how they try to destroy me I feel that the power of God kept me sane kept me from killing myself kept me from doing complete damage to myself so even though there was all this darkness there was some there was God protecting me doot-doot nights that's with a lot of people is like oh if there was a God while it just happened to you and I'm not if there was if there is a god there's a devil and he's the one that does it to you so well and to make it can make you pretty strong yeah you're making pretty strong and I survived it I survived it and I I was broken for a long time but I'm fine now do you know and this is you know I also wanted to point out I've had dr. capper Mattei on this show twice I think and he talks about this in his book in the realm of hungry ghosts about drug addiction often well he said that everyone he treated for heroin addiction had been sexually abused as a child that if you look at the prevalence of opioid deaths and and what are they like per year in America they're like the death toll of the Vietnam War or something I mean okay you can look at Chinese drug manufacturers you could look at Mexican drug cartels and so on but they are supplying a demand and this is not just supply creates its own demand you know like if I find a boxer heroin on my front steps I'm I'm not good to take it right I be the supply doesn't always create its own demand there is a demand in this area and I think that the lack of protection that children are experiencing since the 60s I think is producing significant amounts of abuse now it's it's very complicated and I don't have data right because unfortunately data it doesn't really I mean until after the Second World War people didn't even really think of the physical abuse of children I mean if the first doctor who's like wow there's a lot of kids coming in with broken arms and and and broken noses and so on and he was the one who first began to piece together that it might actually be physical like it wasn't even thought of and with regards to sexual abuse there's no there's there's no data as far as I understand it going back in time so it's really hard to tell but I do know that a lack of in particular a biological father in the household is associated as I said with high rates of sexual abuse and so my concern is that if sexual abuse is on the increase of children because of the smashing up of the family and of communities then that is creating a demand for horror erasing drugs in in society and we're seeing a symptom I mean I was I've pointed this out on on Twitter a bunch of times in the black community between 40% and 60% of black girls report being raped by a black man before they turn 18 and that that's I mean beyond horrendous is beyond horrendous what's going on in the black community and so so the idea that the problem is a statue somewhere of a Civil War general that that's the issue is such a red herring it's such a I mean the people who are abusing children in the black community again according to the the women it's black men for the most part I mean they love it when you talk about reparations for slavery and and this statue and and just because that way everyone's looking over there rather than what they're doing which of course you know the harm that's been done to the black community by black child rapists far exceeds to an infinite degree that the presence of a statue somewhere of a civil war general from the south so it's kind of a big distraction and red herring so I I do think that I want people to sort of understand that where you see a lot of drug addiction in my opinion and it's not just my opinion there's data to back it up but in my opinion where you see increasing levels of drug addiction you are seeing increasing levels of child predation and the drug addiction is a way of attempting to deal with that that pain is it oh well you know that the the manufacturing jobs left and and that come on I mean come on but there were there were not massive drug addictions in the 1930s when 25 percent of people were unemployed and and there was right so that is and there's nothing that takes your pain away like heroin there's nothing that it's it's gone yeah you don't have pain yeah and you're not aiming to feel happy you're just aiming to feel not in pain you just aiming yeah yeah it's not a drug that makes you feel great or makes you feel wonderful or makes you feel high like ecstasy it's it's something that because you're in this copy and this constant pain in the pit of your stomach that never leaves you and as soon as you take that opioid or that fentanyl or that heroin it kills that and then you feel normal like you feel nothing so it feels good well and it's a way that I would try to get people to understand this and please tell me if I go astray because I'm talking about your experience more but imagine that like if you have to have a tooth pulled or a root canal or something like that imagine doing that with no anesthetic right imagine doing that with no numbing no no you got to get your wisdom teeth pulls and and it's straight up like no laughing gas no injections of whatever local anaesthetic they put in your gums or whatever like that would be a screaming Li horrible experience right so the reason that you get the numbing is not because you want to feel good it's because you don't want to feel the mind-bending pain of dental work without anesthetic it's the same thing like if you have to have your appendix out you want the anaesthetic not because you want to be high and have a great time you just don't want to be conscious when they sawed open your body right and and so from that if people can understand it that way there's not people chasing a high anymore than you're chasing high when you want anesthetic for an operation it's avoiding the the agony that they're experienced that's right that's right that is 138th that is beautiful that is that is exactly right if every day was dental surgery okay so let's talk about childhood did he show the kind of temper that he has now that his show up when he was a kid um no so when he was a little kid he was a busy boy very very busy but he wasn't he was a lovely child like every time I would go to her parents teacher conf he was always the teachers favorite kid he was he always had a thousand friends around him he was he he never he never got into trouble in primary school he was smart he was there was no the only thing with as when he was little was he was the absolute golden child when it came to my mother and father my mother and stepfather he was there everything I think the only person my mother ever loved was so what they were that but what they would do is they would like they would over indulge to a degree which was insane and they would not do the same for that's my daughter she was one she knew she knew that that they it was all about they would say are we taking the kids somewhere and it would be where one sit or we would get a twin wouldn't get a toy it was all about all the time how much did he spend with them when so when was born she was also a preemie she was a preemie baby and she was very very sick very sick she was on ventilators and breathing machines and it was pretty bizarre that every time I left her her blood SATs would drop her heart rate would drop her heart stopped beating in front of me they actually gave her an adrenaline needle in her chest right in front of me so I eventually got to the stage with her that I decided I'll never leave the hospital because as soon as I go home shall I get a phone call to say come back it doesn't look like she's gonna make it but when I'm sitting there with her she's fine so I then decided for three weeks I would just stay at the hospital and live like that and how old at this time was two and a half so at that time then went to was working and with my mother and father and then came home and like I said she was a difficult baby she cried a lot the only way I could keep her happy was in my arms which annoyed the living life out of my mother because she kept on telling me put her down let her crying I was like I'd rather not ever cry so I don't mind holding her but my mother was like you neglect him and I'm like I'm not neglected I just want to stop crying the only time she stops crying is when she's in my art so I didn't maybe there was a bad parenting technique for me but I didn't feel comfortable leaving her to cry well she had a hell of a start to life right I mean she was hovering a death door for weeks right that's right that's absolutely rot she was very very very sick as a as a baby and but why your parents because I had nobody else I couldn't couldn't your husband take a sabbatical I mean you you leaving your son with a guy who raised a pedophile my husband couldn't even make time to come and visit his daughter in hospital so you there was no there was no one there was me alone with and I had no one could you have brought to the hospital with you or I mean I'm just because I'm just going back to I know they not allowed to because they they in and in US and the NICU neonatal intensive care unit so they they don't allow children under the age of 30 no friends no no other relatives no community you know I I had cousins and aunties Annette but me no one that would have helped me with me they wouldn't have helped me and how I sure did have to his grandparents before he was two and a half and and your daughter was born well they would see him that all the time where they would seem okay so now let's rewind cuz we don't have the emergency of your daughter so bonded with his grandparents right absolutely okay so why given how much pain they have caused you why would you put in their orbit so consistently I believe it's because I had suppressed how terrible my life where i i i i had not faced it because the story as a teenager was from my mother the story to everyone was that i was rebellious and i was ungrateful because they gave me everything and I didn't appreciate it and that was the the story that played in my mind you know I never thought about the domestic abuse I never thought about the sexual abuse I never thought about how violent my home was yeah but but when when did that sorry to interrupt when did that knowledge arise within you when I went into that that rehab facility and how old how old were your kids then well I was 26 so was five and three okay so before that the story was I was an ungrateful no no sorry I get all of that I apologize for interrupting I just want to make sure okay so when you were 25 was five was three you went into rehab you did the emotional work to to understand how terrible your childhood was did that change your children's relationship to your parents that changed everything because when I went got out of this facility I took my children and I moved to a town 200 kilometers away from everybody I had got a really successful good job I was provided company housing I it was a smaller town and I had removed them from the situation okay so this is the big difference that I see that had very little exposure to her grandparents when she was little because she was in the hospital and then she was with you and and and so on right and had continual exposure to his grandparents during his formative years from 0 to 5 right yes whereas wouldn't God never spent one night at their house okay so yeah understood the difference here yes now do you think that might have been over at the grandparents when the pedophile son was around absolutely right do you think that he might have preyed upon I don't know might be something to ask might be something to ask how do I ask in that well Bank has come so he bonded as far as I understand it right cuz he he was he was hyper indulged which is of course very bad and and you understand that the hyper indulgence is part of your parents vengeance against you right which is look how wonderful we can be to a good kid I'm gonna tell you something Stefan that that happened to me when I was 3 years old I mom I don't know where my mother was and I was at home and I I remember this as clear as day I was playing in my bedroom and in South Africa in those days they would have you know have your major than any woman after you and she must have been out in the backyard and my dad was home and this stepbrother and I walked into the bedroom and him and my stepdad were in bed together sorry I just lost a little track of that can you just give me that one more scenario one more time so I was about three years old and my the nanny was outside I was playing in the room and I came into my dad was there with the stepbrother that molested me a few years later and when I walked into the room him and my dad were naked in bed together so this the stepbrother who molested you later and your stepfather were naked in bed together yes right so it's possible based upon this scenario that the stabbed dad was also a child molester but focus more on boys yes and had continual access to your sons yes right but they he loved master dead he loved him well so did you odd yeah come on so how do i how do I say that sucks that's the one thing that I've thought about but I up inches I've spoken to them about my abuse because but how do I say well he may he may of course he may not remember consciously if he was very young right Rach like I didn't remember like I didn't remember and I can't just go hey do you think iPod did something to you he'd be angry he'd be mad at me he'd be furious but there's something there's something in that child it's not in my daughter there's something man that I don't understand there's something or or or or something there that you understand all too well yes right is he is he angry at women do you think your son yes why is he angry at women more so than man I don't know well if something bad happened to him when he was very young then he may be more angry at you than even at the perpetrator because you sent him there according to his perception perhaps well I would agree with that perception you'd think he should be angry at me I have thought this I've never spoken to anybody about this but I have believed that something's happened for yes but I've I've never I've never even spoken to my husband about this but we do know that your son was around one according to you confirmed to child molester and another which you talked about when you saw him in bed with his son naked when they were when you were three yes which would explain the Sun to a large degree again there's still free will of morality but this is Domino's right so if he was in this environment and of course it is not unknown for child abusers to buy off silence with presence right and you say that the grandparents spoiled him like crazy not crazy right fuck he got everything he wants it yeah well that would be that could be just buying buying silence right yeah but then that makes me that the worst human being because then I didn't protect him from the thing that I thought oh no listen no no no don't go there don't go there that's that's not what I'm saying and that's not what any no I'm sorry you're gonna have to put your feelings aside this is a philosophy show which means we look at the morality okay if you say that you're the worst person in this situation that's entirely false because if something happened and I'm guarantee you something bad or a series of bad things happened whether it went all the way to molestation we may never know right right but but he was with child abusers right as a baby as an infant as a toddler and and a lot right you said he was there all the time right so I know it's not all the time a lot from two years old between but for two before his sister was born he was always with me he never stayed with them so from oh I'm so sorry let's go sorry let's go back because I got a note here and I I must have missed taking it incorrectly I want to make sure I'm so you said a two and a half he stood he stayed with his mother and father with your mother and father a lot yeah I thought that before that they saw him a lot they say they saw him but he never stayed over alone so I would be there with him and he was never I think he slept at my mum and dad's once and that was when the World Cup rugby happened in South Africa that was the only time until but they was were they would they have him without line from time not between before two and a half okay okay sorry sorry I'm Matt they sort of in my life because I saw them a lot yeah yeah you know it would harm our there but he he only stayed there once in that that time and that was in 1995 and and when was born that's when he was there all the time because I was dealing with this very very sick okay all right no but no yeah it's the people who harm the children who are the ones morally to blame you understand right so if you if you suddenly go to the worst person in this equation that's your mom talking right which is whatever happens you're the worst right whatever problems are on the family they're caused by you you look like that's your mom talking and I won't stand for that and I'm and I've got boggle according to that's what's wrong with me she diagnosed me with bipolar which she had to write because she's which I don't have you know this this so no look first of all you can't know what you don't know right having a standard called omniscience is unfair and self-abusive you did not knowingly consciously send your child to people who were dangerous to who had been dangerous to children right because you had been subjected to a huge amount of propaganda and and you had accepted that as the price of survival which we all do to a large degree right so you did not knowingly and consciously do something that was wrong or bad or dangerous to your son I'm sure your son loved going over there because they were spoiling him and so like I remember when I was a kid there was a I had a babysitter who this level sounds like the beginning of a bad story but it's not I had a babysitter who whenever I would go there would give me a curly wurly which was like a kind of thick spiderweb caramel chocolate thing that I just adored and she would also let me stay up late and I remember the first time I ever watched the news that came on at 10 o'clock or whenever it was maybe was 11 probably 10 and I just loved going over there because I got candy and got to stay up it was fantastic and I remember I I thought I was going there that night I guess I've been told she was going there one night and I just I cried all night but I was like I don't know six years old or five years old or something like probably five because I think it was before boarding school and I remember clearly flying crying all night because I just wanted to go there because this is somebody who was nice to me and so if there is the situation where your son is dying to go you've got your daughter who's always who's very needy as a baby you don't have any memory of what you don't remember obviously you emissions is not a valid standard so it's understandable given the lack of options that you had given how helpful quote helpful your parents were given how your son probably wanted to go over there a lot this is all understandable right because I don't want you sliding into this story of now you're the worst person in this situation maybe nothing happened we're just we're just looking at differences and and the big difference it seems to me at the moment would be exposure to the grandparents even if nothing happened in terms of a sexual abuse if nothing happened in terms of physical abuse they're twisted people right and just having them like having him bond with twisted people which your daughter didn't really do right then if you're looking at how this quote virus of dysfunction may have transferred itself to your son it could just be through exposure and it may have nothing to do with sexual or physical abuse it's just he bonded with some very twisted people and that may conceivably have had a rolling effect going forward does he know or how much does he know about your parents well he knows about my step-brother he knows about what my father did to not the details obviously but he knows that I was sexually abused by my father and sexually abused by my step-brother he knows that he knows that about the violence and the domestic abuse and the police being called and the houses being smashed and broken and the alcoholism and he knows all of that does he know what your mother says about your conception yes when he hears these things about his grandparents how does he react he deaf so my mother passed away two years ago and I my reaction was not what he wanted it to be because I was because just before she died she had come over and she'd visited us and she was on more medication than you get in the pharmacy it was ridiculous and she ran out of her medication after a few weeks and she set one day on the patio talking to my husband and I and she looked at me and she said you bet you ruin my life you ruined my life having you ruined my life and I've never loved you that was the last couple face to face conversation I ever had with my mother well she really went out with a snarl didn't she so when she died I didn't have that at first I was upset obviously it was but after a couple of weeks I was like Mac's not speaking positively about granny and he would go crazy he would go mad because I was like she didn't love me though she does love you she did and I was like she didn't love me and every time she told me she loved me as a kid I thought she was lying and I've said to both of my children because I knew instinctively as a kid I knew she was a liar and I didn't believe what she was saying and I asked my kids because it troubled me so much and I've asked them both individually I'm like do you really believe that mommy loves you and then I of course we did it like we've never questioned that and I never believed she liked me and she had murdered that to me and my husband the last time I ever saw so he's still bonded with your mother absolutely and my dad he still bonded with your mother and with your stepdad right my stepdad died in 2009 and my mother died two years ago and he still cries if you just mentioned them right okay well then he's bonded with some very damaged and damaging people so of course of course he's doing what he's doing because that's the thing you know that the I don't underst I always thought that people that beat husband said beat wives or girlfriends boyfriends and I thought it's because I saw it in the home I never allowed that in my home because I grew up with that and I would never ever after they dad did it to me like it was and it happened once inside but who knows what he saw at the grandparents I mean your mother was so nasty that at the end she still said you ruined my life right there was no thawing of this frozen broken heart at the end right she was still blaming you for her life so she died as unrepentantly horrible and ghastly a human being as she seems to have lived so there's no there's no there's no great clouds right there's no break in these planets so they were asking us and vicious and brutal and violent when your son was there as probably and when you were there or or any other time that's the thing and everybody around me makes excuses for her saying that oh she didn't really mean it oh she didn't have medications and she was and I thought no and I could everybody my husband my children everyone is up she didn't mean it she didn't mean it she's know everyone gets forgiveness except the victims that's the sad thing it's a sad thing in this world everyone gets forgiveness except the victims so yeah so your your son is bonded with some violent incredibly dysfunctional people who were emotionally abusive physically obviously abusive and well based upon what you saw at the age of three who knows what else right and and certainly according to your experience the son was a a child rapist yes so that's who he's that's part of his bonding right and the bonding is how the virus transmits right whatever we praise we become whatever we condemn we avoid but whatever prey whatever we praise what we become and so maybe because if he perceives that you failed to protect him deep down then he's going to fail to protect you in other words he is going to reenact against you which is incredibly painful to you and and recreate the pain in you that he may feel you created in him by exposing him to these people yeah and I believe it's solvable I mean this is all fixable right so and and and again I'm cognizant of the fact that you're gonna have an inner mom right Natalie you're gonna have an inner mom in your head who's gonna try and blame you for all of this right but don't let her that's that's not gonna help your sign it's not gonna help you and it certainly is not rational or virtuous to to allow her to take over your system in this way right this possession right possession is a very real thing it's just most like a logical then elemental because right and and what that does is it makes you not available to solve the problem with your son right so that voice is not there to help your son it's there to help your mom at your expense and at your son's expense you're gonna put that stuff aside okay right I mean your mom's dead she can't harm you anymore so that voice which is there that voice is not aware that your son is dead sorry that that your your mom is dead and maybe just maybe that voice is there to keep you from helping your son so that you can collapse inwards and not be available rotz adds extra control from the grave oh absolutely almost nobody has more power than the dead I mean all the Communists who set into motion the self-destruction at the West they're all dead they have the most power of all yeah there's a kind of reason with the dead they dominate and there is all that it's bizarre you have to have respect for the dead no have to have respect for virtue and courage they these are not attributes magically gained by ceasing to breathe now I assume of course that your son very much wishes to not hit his girlfriend right yes okay absolutely he does not do that he does know so then of course I think talking about the family history of violence you know that this is like an exorcism I mean if I were in your shoes if I were in your shoes Natalie I would do something like this I would say well I've got to sit down and figure out how to interfere with this bond that my son has with some evil people and you know again just collapsing in on yourself and saying I'm bad woe is me I'm the worst person it's not gonna help you but that that's designed to help destroy your sons I believe chance of of becoming a better person and all that right so you good that's all nonsense right I mean you you have a problem which you didn't know about if this is the solution it could be any other things this is sort of where my instincts go but you have the challenge which is now you have to figure out a way to interfere or disrupt the bond that your son has and and how you do that I don't know I mean it's not I'm not the mom and it's not my son and so on but if the price if the price of becoming a better person is giving up his bond with evil people it's well worth doing it's gonna bring out a lot of pain in him because this illusory bond is one of the way he keeps his horas of his childhood at bay at least this this time there's this part but I would say that given that your daughter's doing well and she didn't have the exposure and your son is not doing as well and he had the exposure that's the one big difference that I can see and and that would be where I would be focusing my energies is and I don't know whether that's questions I don't know whether it's confrontation I don't know whether that's brutal honesty I don't know whether that's delicate queries I have no idea because you know that's not not my relationship but you know if you if you mold us over that could be I'm sure you can find the right the right way to do it well I I'm a cop I'm I'm stunned at how you showed me where the difference was between the two of them because hey I'm just telling you back what you told me so I know I could figure it out I couldn't figure it out I was sorry what what happened to and that that was it that was the only thing that was different in their lives well I mean obviously there probably are other things but that's yeah but that was I mean when she went to my mother for school holidays or something she would be there one day and she would ring me and literally say granny's been asked you to me I'm coming home now come and fetch me oh she didn't bond with that she Epps and my mother did not like her thank you did not like her of course she she had two moms number right yeah and she would yes and she's very very attached to me she she's very lovable to me she's all about mum all the time and I think that annoyed my mother as well that was was just all about her and my dad and and he she could talk she used to talk badly about me too and he would listen and agree with she couldn't do that with because we've got I'm gonna tell my mum what you just said well and also it could be you say that his resentment towards his sister could also be because she was not exposed to what he was exposed to that she got away yeah and this may be something to talk about with your daughter as well right like what was the difference and and did you ever hear anything or see anything with regards to your brother and you know this could be this you know and again I'm a big fan of talk therapy you know if you if you guys get a good family therapist you can sit down talk about the stuff it won't be you know if this is the issue then it won't be a massive exploratory session that's gonna take you six or 12 months and Lord knows how much money it could be like well this seems to be the issue that he's bonded with you know if he's bonded with his his grandfather but his grandfather was physically violent towards his significant other so of course if he's bonded with his grandfather it's gonna be much more likely that he's going to be physically violent towards his significant other right right and that's their parting shot that's their parting gift right which is okay well you can criticize us and you can move away but we'll get you through your sign yeah yeah I think that's it I think I'm just I'm I'm I'm gonna figure it out I'm gonna bring it up I'm gonna get him to I'm gonna do whatever I can to get into SIDS and listen you've done a magnificent job of ending the cycle of violence I'm sure you'll be able to solve this one I mean if I can help in any way just let me know him I don't know sure they're gonna wonder chat with me about probing the bond with his grandparents but if he wants you I'm happy to but you've done if Magna mean you're like a Valkyrie a female warrior in terms of tamping down this cycle of violence and given all that happened to you I think you've done a wonderful job and you should be immensely proud of this you were in desperate straits with your son I mean I get that I understand that and and you didn't know what you didn't know I I just I really want you to come out of this in particular Natalie with my intense admiration and I hope that means something to you because I don't just hand it out like candy but my intense admiration for your obvious love for your children for your capacity to contain and work through the abuse that you suffered and and to break this cycle of violence and abuse and predation that has probably be going on for 10,000 years I'm not kidding like it stopped with you it's diminished with you you can solve it with you and that is heroic beyond any language that I could summon to describe it well that is the most wonderful thing I could have heard from you because I know in my lid I was like if you tell my son not to be with me and you what I meant was I'm not what I I didn't mean it as you instructing him when I wrote that it was like I must be that bad that I am one of those parents that a child should be free from do you know what I mean it because maybe it's me that's running them and you've just said the most beautiful thing to me then then that's giving me hope and strength and it's coming from you is amazing because you're not really you do tough on mums and dads that don't do the right thing and and I love that about you and I thought that that that's who I was I thought I was one of them and I didn't want to be one of them right right and look I mean if just from a complete tactical standpoint the choice is to have you influenced him or to have the continued dysfunctional ghost of his grandparents dominate his behavior what would you choose if you were in my shoes right to have you because you know the truth about your grandparents and your grandparents denied the truth to him and to you enter themselves so you are the bearer of truth in this family and and we have to do with us because he he could end up in jail he could he could kill somebody and and and if I do nothing then now that I know then I am responsible so I am gonna do I am gonna do whatever it takes to to get there through to you good to help him heal from that good and again if there's anything I can do please please let me know and I mean I I think we got there it you know please let me know how it goes but I think I think that's it I'll keep you updated thank you so so much you're very very welcome great job and I look forward to hearing what happens thanks well thank you so much for enjoying this latest freedom n show on philosophy and I'm going to be frank and ask you for your help your support your encouragement and your resources please like subscribe and share and all of that good stuff to get philosophy out into the world and also equally importantly go to freedomain comm forward slash donate to help out the show to give me the resources that I need to bring more and better philosophy to an increasingly desperate world so thank you so much for your support my friends freedomain dot-com forward slash donate you

Author Since: Mar 11, 2019

  1. Wow, this and thats just insaneCaller if you ever read this, you have my utmost admiration and gratefulness You are such a strong and dedicated woman and this is one of the most touching and powerful call-in show I have ever listened to and I've listened to almost them all!
    <3 and well thoughts from me and I'm sure you'll work it out with your dear son!

  2. "I've been doing this for years and this is probably the worst I've ever heard"
    I would hope so Stefan. I would hope so

  3. 17yo sexually molests 7yo step sister and impregnates 13yo girl. I'd beat my son for that. And I mean beat, not hit.

  4. You are so correct about heroin being the drug that numbs , and so many of society are dependent on it x

  5. Wow, maybe Stefan just stopped the Antichrist from ushering in Armageddon? Seriously, I hope he is able to find peace. I would also consider the church if there's a good one.

  6. The power of god did not keep her father from raping her and drinking her blood. Ditch the god bullshit Stefan or get bogged down in the bullshit of making excuses for invisible invigilation that neglects you to a living hell.

  7. "Oh man I could be putting out shows with such click-baity titles, but I am aware of it and try not to cheapen the stuff that we deal with in this show."
    – Stef in a recent stream, paraphrased
    If any show deserves click-bait influx, it's this one though!

  8. This kinda thing may sound insane to most.

    But, it happens way more often than youd think, even worse than what this lady has described.

    By all means though, continue believing satan doesnt exist.

  9. Sorry in advance…. I have to vent. 18 years old and not related to you. We have rules in our society for a damn reason. Do you not know the rules? Are you playing a different game? Child molestation and rape should be punished with death by skin flaying on public television. I've never suffered it but I see the carnage. Oooo, I think my jungian shadow got the better of me. I'd still kill them myself.

  10. 50 minutes in…. I'm out of here. It's probably difficult for us to gage class in South Africa, but I think this woman sounds like a flower seller in late 19th century London .
    I was waiting for something to happen…..but nothing materialized.

  11. I wish all the best to the lady and her family, her story was truly heart-breaking :(. Really makes you think what priviliges you have in life that other people don't and still, they have the strength to keep going.

  12. A lot of mothers who are raped by their husbands become so jaded that they don't care if it happens to the daughter as well.
    "I went through it as well, so don't make a fuss!"

  13. I think heroin and other opioids have gotten so popular in tandem with family breakdown and atomisation. It makes people feel comforted and self-sufficient— in the short term.

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